What Small Business Leaders Get Wrong About Workplace Mental Health: MHA VP Suzi Craig

Suzi Craig (00:00 - 00:30)

Because ultimately leaders, they want to retain their employees. They want to make sure that employees are showing up and actually engaged and productive. Right. Presenteeism is on the rise. People showing up and their bodies are there, but their minds are elsewhere. Right. So, they're converging challenges in the workplace. And you know, I think it's important for leaders to understand what their role is and their responsibility is to support their employees.

Announcer: (00:30 – 00:40)

Welcome to THRIVE, a Paychex Business Podcast, your blueprint for navigating everything from people to policies to profits. And now your host, Gene Marks.

Gene Marks (00:42 - 01:25)

Hey everybody, it's Gene Marks. And welcome to another episode of the Paychex THRIVE Podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. It is Mental Health Awareness Month and we want to talk about mental health in the workplace on today's episode because it is such a critical thing for our employees. My special guest today is Suzi Craig. She is the VP of Workplace Mental Health at Mental Health America, which is the nation's leading national nonprofit dedicated to the promotion of mental health, wellbeing, and prevention. The Mental Health America, by the way, can be found at mhanational.org. This will also be in the show notes as well. So, Suzi, thank you so much for joining. We have a lot to talk about this. Thank you for taking the time.

Suzi Craig (01:25 - 01:27)

Gene, it's great to see you. Thank you for having me on.

Gene Marks (01:28 - 01:47)

Yeah. Glad that you're here. So before we even get started, before I go into questions, because this is Mental Health Awareness Month, you guys are doing a mental health webinar. It's called More Good Days Together, a virtual wellness experience. It's on May 20 at 12:00 Eastern time. Can you just give a little pitch, tell us a little bit about what this webinar is all about?

Suzi Craig (01:47 - 02:32)

Sure, yeah. Many folks may not know, but Mental Health America actually founded Mental Health Awareness Month in 1949. So, we are full of activities. So, if you go to our website, you can't miss all of the great Mental Health Month activities. But this one is one of my favorites because it is really all about, you know, just self-love and doing some things for yourself, taking time out, lots of really great, you know, virtual self-care essentially and wellness. So, breathing exercises, a little bit of journaling, a little bit of connection with community and yourself. So, if you can, it's super, you know, busy time and chaotic time for everyone. So, if you can take an hour for yourself, please do so.

Gene Marks (02:33 - 02:46)

You know, gosh, I see you guys started this back in 1949. I didn't even know people were even thinking about mental health in 1949, you know, it seems like a newer thing, you know.

Suzi Craig (02:47 - 02:51)

Yeah, I mean, our organization started in 1909, so...

Gene Marks (02:51 - 02:52)

Wow.

Suzi Craig (02:52 - 02:55)

Yeah, we've been around a hot minute.

Gene Marks (02:55 - 03:16)

Yeah, it's funny, you know, it's funny. It just goes to show how there are certain movements and certain things in this world that they really take time to, you know, perk up to the top. I mean, mental health is a massive issue today, more so than I can remember being in the professional workplace over the past 20, 30 years. And yet you guys have been talking about it since the beginning of the 20th century.

Suzi Craig (03:17 - 03:17)

Sí.

Gene Marks (03:18 - 03:35)

Your time has definitely come. It has definitely come. Suzi, let's talk about creating a culture of trust, you know, and how to invest in trust, because it's so important for organizations to promote good mental health. Talk to me a little bit about what we mean by a culture of trust.

Suzi Craig (03:35 - 05:17)

My favorite topic. And I'm sure some folks are thinking like, how does this connect with mental health? So bear with me, I will get there. This is something that we research. We research trust. We research how leaders are creating an environment where employees feel like they can trust their managers, the C-suite, their colleagues. And why is that important? If you have trust in your relationships and the connections that you have, you know, how many hours do we spend at work? More than we do elsewhere, for most of us, then that's a doorway for you to raise your hand. When something is not right, when you're struggling, when you need help, right when you don't have a culture of trust, when that is not foundational, when it's not baked into your values, when it's talked about, but the experience with the employees doesn't have that, then you're causing a lot more harm than good. I think, there's an interesting Gallup poll, you may have seen this, It came out last year and they surveyed 52 countries. And this is just talking about leadership generally, so outside of any kind of corporate business context. Thousands and thousands of people surveyed all walks of life, all 52 countries, the dominant trait in leadership, that followers quote unquote, you know, kind of umbrella term, there was hope followed by trust, and then compassion, and then stability. I find that fascinating. And stability was way down. It was hope and trust that they want to see from their leaders.

Gene Marks (05:19 - 05:39)

What does that mean, trust? Like, how do you build it? I mean, you know, I have a 10-person company and I get it. You're like, hey, you know, you know, to have the best relationship with your employees and to promote the best, you know, mental health as a culture, you need to have trust in your business. So, you know, how do I do that?

Suzi Craig (05:39 - 07:49)

Yeah, great question. So out of the hundreds of companies that, you know, we work with that come to us for understanding best practices and how to integrate mental health fully into their organizations, 78% of them talk openly about their lived experience. And I'm talking about the leadership of the organization. Right. So it really starts there. It really starts with having those open conversations. And even if, you know, a frontline worker, an individual contributor doesn't feel comfortable sharing, seeing a leader in that position saying, hey, this is what I'm going through, here's my story, I want you to know that that way of being in this organization is normalized for all of us, right? And that's the foundation of where it begins. And that allows employees to go to their managers and to go to folks and say, hey, I really need this. I think workplaces are fascinating cultures. They're ecosystems, right? Think about folks that are coming together that normally may not be coming together in a community. Right? And people, when they're walking in the door, they're not necessarily leaving their, you know, their life challenges at home, right? So, you need to be able to create an environment where employees feel like, oh, I can share, you know, what is happening with me so then the employer can help figure out, is it a responsibility for them to help you? Do they need to get you connected to resources? You know, where. does their responsibility lie in supporting you? Because ultimately, leaders, they want to retain their employees. They want to make sure that employees are showing up and actually engaged and productive. Right. Presenteeism is on the rise. People showing up and their bodies are there, but their minds are elsewhere. Right? So these converging challenges in the workplace and, you know, I think it's important for leaders to understand what their role is, and their responsibility is to support their employees.

Gene Marks (07:50 - 08:27)

Yeah, that's great. I also just, you demonstrate, you know this by your actions as well. Right? I mean, I know a lot of people in my life, business owners and others that, I know you've met them as well, Susie. Like, they're, you just meet somebody, you can tell by their eyes, you know, they're kind people or they're good people or they're not going to mess you around, or they will be empathetic or sympathetic, depending on, you know, what the issues are. And then you meet other people that are kind of the opposite of that, you know. And so, I guess it's just, you know, building that trust, I don't know if you agree, is really just about how you behave as an owner and a manager. Because people are watching. Like parents, like kids are watching their parents, right?

Suzi Craig (08:27 - 09:26)

Absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, it's important to understand that this may not be, you know, you may have a super caring individual who is very introverted, and now maybe they've been promoted to manager, which is a different job than the job they were doing. Make sure that there is a pathway for that manager to have the training to understand that, look, empathy is going to be the way in to connect with your teams and it's going to be the way these are the best practices and showing up. So yes, it is, I agree with you. Like, I've had amazing bosses and amazing people that I've worked with by the nature of who they are, and that's great. But if that's not your nature, it doesn't mean you're a bad boss. It just means that maybe you haven't gotten the right training to understand how to support your employees.

Gene Marks (09:27 - 09:38)

Talk to me about training. Is that something that you guys do? Is that something that you have to learn on your own? What kind of training should employers be getting for themselves and their employees to promote mental health?

Suzi Craig (09:38 - 11:08)

I mean, the training runs the gamut, right? And when we look at the top employers, employers that are really doing things well, they're creating an infrastructure across the organization to make sure that everyone is getting, whether it's workshops or access to, you know, what does it mean to understand mental health, what does it mean to have those skills in engaging, right? That's for everyone. But there are very specific policies and best practices when you're a manager. Right. There are things you should not be saying. Right. When it comes to, you know, if someone is in a crisis situation or they're facing a mental health challenge, there's the right way to have that conversation and the wrong way to have that conversation. Right? So there's active listening, you know, modules. There's mental health first aid. There's all sorts of trainings out there that we work with partners to do that primarily, like we will do custom workshops. But primarily, you know, there are an end amount of trainings out there that companies have access to. The biggest, you know, question is, can you invest in that? Do you see that as an investment? Right. And the companies that we work with, they all, I have the luxury of working with companies that I don't have to convince them that this is the work that they need to be doing, right.

Gene Marks (11:08 - 11:08)

Right.

Suzi Craig (11:09 - 11:32)

So, that's great for me because I don't spend my day convincing them that of why to do this. I spend my day helping them figure out where to prioritize based on what's been working, you know, or how things have shifted in the organization, how those, you know, those plans kind of align with where the organization is going.

Gene Marks (11:32 - 11:32)

Right.

Suzi Craig (11:33 - 11:33)

Sí.

Gene Marks (11:34 - 11:39)

Makes sense. Okay. Psychological safety, what do we mean by that?

Suzi Craig (11:39 - 13:51)

Yeah, so Amy Edmondson from Harvard, she coined this phrase, boy, I think it was even back in the maybe late 80s, early 90s, I can't remember when, but it's been around for a minute. And really the focus of her definition is that there is a shared belief among teams that interpersonal risk taking, this is kind of her phrase, is not just valued, but it's promoted. So what does that mean? That means that if I am someone without, you know, influence, or maybe I'm not a supervisor, or maybe I'm a person of color, or maybe I'm someone from the LGBTQ community or someone that is showing up to an organization that I may not seem to have influence or power at the get-go, it doesn't matter. I should be able to raise my hand and say, hey, something's not right here. Whether that's work-related or, you know, or not work-related. Right. So, you're again, back to creating that environment and that culture of trust. If you think about workplace safety, you think about OSHA, you think about, you know, trips and falls and like, all the things that companies do to put safety protocols in place to make sure that they are minimizing health risks, we want to see companies elevate psychological safety to that level too. So that means addressing bullying. That means looking at toxic, you know, dynamics. That means not actually allowing for people to violate those practices. Right. To make sure that they're held accountable for their behavior and actions. Back to your point about behavior. So psychological safety is, you know, is something that if it becomes a part of the DNA of the organization as well as the practices and the policies, then what you're doing now is you're shifting the organization to be focused on we are preventing and intervening when things happen. Right.

Gene Marks (13:52 - 15:13)

Right. Makes sense. Okay, so Suzi, we've got, you know, you know, we have a lot of business owners that listen to this podcast, and, you know, the data shows that more than half of American business owners are over the age of 55. In other words, there's a lot of Boomers that are out there, you know. People from that generation and mine, I'm Gen X, you know, we just did not grow up with a, you know, mental health or mental health awareness type of attitude. You know, you kind of push those issues, you know, under the carpet. You move ahead. But that's changed, you know. But the bottom line is, though, is that you still have the majority of businesses being run by people from these, you know, from these generations. So let's give some advice, first of all, for them. Okay? If I'm a business owner and I've got 10 employees or 50 employees or 150 employees, and I really do want to be cognizant of my employees' mental health. We all know the benefits of a good mental health culture and, you know, the productivity gains and happiness and all that. We all know that. Okay, what should I be looking for? You know, I mean, like, what, what signs should I see among my employees that might be an indication that their mental health might be suffering and that action might need to be taken? What should I be looking for?

Suzi Craig (15:13 - 18:12)

Yeah, great question. And as a fellow Gen Xer, I'mright there with you. Yeah, I mean, let's talk about the generational thing for a minute because I think it's really important, right. We have four or five generations working, you know, in the workplace generally, which is the most we've ever had. Right. In our research, 7 in 10 Gen Z and 3 and 5 Millennials report having unhealthy work experiences. Right. And they're the highest, higher than Gen X and higher than Boomer. They're coming in and they're saying that their experiences, and they're pretty vocal, you know, some, that's over generalization, but they're quick to report and say, like, this doesn't work for me. So, we have a program called the Bell Seal for Workplace Mental Health, where we survey and assess, you know, how employers are supporting wellness programs. And we had an employer tell us that going through a hiring process, they had more than one candidate ask them if they are working with Mental Health America and others to make sure that this is a culture that is prioritizing mental health. That's the best compliment I've ever received. I'm not saying that to pat myself on the back. What I'm saying is younger generations are coming in with an expectation that this is a part of their work environment. Right. So, my biggest advice to employers is if there's a big question mark around you not knowing where the hotspots are and who might be challenged, whether it's a department or a team or, you know, frontline workers, older, younger, that means you haven't asked the questions and you, you haven't done the work to really understand what the unique needs are for your workforce. And this is where it's hard to give advice to everyone because it's apples to oranges as far as, like your work environment. Right. And folks on the front line will probably need something completely different from folks at a desk, you know, folks on the shop floor different from someone in C-suite. Right. They're going to have different needs. So, one of the things that we, you know, we ask and make sure it is like the number one best practices for employers is that employee survey are gathering that information in the way that you know you're going to get honest feedback and then informing with that, with whatever you're investing in. It has to start there. You can't be wondering, you can't be guessing and you're wasting your money, by the way, if you're just assuming that that EAP or this wellness program is going to work for your workforce, you might be very surprised when you ask the questions about what folks actually need.

Gene Marks (18:12 - 19:04)

Got it. How can an employer Suzi, like, I mean, humans are humans and there will always be employees who will take advantage of this system or claim a mental health issue only just to get extra time off or to get special treatment. And then there are employees that have legitimate mental health issues and some of them might not even be willing to reveal those issues because they might see it as a sign of weakness or they don't want, you know, they want to keep it private, you know, that kind of thing, you know. From an employer standpoint, should we be treating, you know, any mental health issue any differently than the other, or should they all, should we have a more of a, just a consistent approach, regardless of whether or not we're suspicious that it might be taking advantage versus, like, oh no, this person really should. Should it just be the same approach to everybody?

Suzi Craig (19:05 - 20:47)

So, I based on, you know, the data and working with employers, I can almost guarantee you that anyone taking advantage of the system is negligible. It is negligible. And I'll tell you why. I don't usually love the word stigma, but it is, it does kind of get at the heart of why this is so hard to talk about. If I'm going to openly say I'm taking time off for a mental health condition, you know, the majority of folks are not going to do that because they're afraid of repercussions, they're afraid of the blowback. Right. And yet we have, so we have organizations that go above and beyond to implement policies. They're, you know, recovery-oriented, best, you know, best places to work, in other words, you know, and they follow ADA. They have mental health benefits. They have wellness work days off, They encourage their employees to take PTO. We find that actually employees work harder, don't take their time off, and are actually so afraid of losing their job, you know, again, overgeneralization, but especially in the times we're living in right now, what's worse are employees hiding what's going on with them. They don't want to share. Caregiving is huge. Right. This is something that is an epidemic right now. Whether you're in the sandwich generation and you're, you know, caring for young ones and caring for your parents, which, you know, Millennials and a lot of people are. Right. You're not going to share, especially if, you know, if you're working remote 100% of the time, maybe you had to step away from your desk to take care of your mom or your kids. Are you going to share all those details with your boss?

Gene Marks (20:48 - 20:48)

Right.

Suzi Craig (20:48 - 20:52)

I mean, maybe if you've got a great workplace and they understand and they're making...

Gene Marks (20:52 - 20:53)

Many people are.

Suzi Craig (20:53 - 21:13)

So flexible work arrangements, understanding the life situations that your employees are in right now, so that you know what that support looks like, so that they're not quitting and leaving you and saying, hey, you know what, this job's not going to work out for me. Are they going to tell you why they're leaving? Maybe, maybe not.

Gene Marks (21:13 - 21:13)

Right.

Suzi Craig (21:13 - 21:16)

So. Right. I just threw a lot at you.

Gene Marks (21:17 - 22:07)

No, you answered my next question. Because you ask anybody running a business, and we all, at least the people I know that are really good at it, they're always looking ahead. And we always hate surprises. We try to do everything to avoid surprises. Right. And the worst kind of surprise, the worst, Suzi, is when you have a good employee who quits on you because they're like, this job's too stressful, or I, you know, my mental health is suffering because, and you didn't even know about it, you know, like, if you knew about it, you could have take some steps to, you know, to do something about it before you lost that good person, you know, so. And I think you're kind of answering, I mean, it, you know, it involves checking in with your people. Right. It involves making sure, requiring people to take time off. Right. And being flexible with their work hours because they're not going to, there's a lot of people that won't ask for that and, you know, they need it. Right.

Suzi Craig (22:08 - 23:15)

And I would say not just requiring them to take off and encouraging them, having a plan for when they're off. Right. So there, you know, there's, I've been in several work situations where folks have gone through, you know, personal health crisis and I had to take one myself this summer, actually. I had to take six weeks off to stay to handle health, you know, experience I was going through. And I work for Mental Health America. Obviously, we're great. We support our folks. Right. Like, like we get it. But I was nervous and I work for Mental Health America. Right. But we had a plan for, you know, deprioritizing things, shifting work. Right. Understanding, like when I'm out so I can fully disconnect and be, you know, not full of work stress and focus on my health. And so when I came back, it was very clear, you know, how I was going to kind of, you know, reintroduce myself in the work. Right. So, it's not just about taking time off, It's about having a plan and a consistent policy across the organization that works for everyone.

Gene Marks (23:17 - 23:29)

A few more questions for you. This is really great. I'm going to, I know we had talked or we had exchanged some emails about some, some questions before we even had this interview, but I'm going to throw you a curve ball here, which I think you're gonna, I think you're gonna do fine.

Suzi Craig (23:29 - 23:30)

I used to play softball. Give it to me.

Gene Marks (23:30 - 24:38)

Well, right, so that's good because that'll prepare you. I'll tell you what the biggest mental health issue is that I am seeing right now from my clients and my readers and the, all the, you know, business people that I associations I speak to. It's technology and AI has become this big stress point. You know, people are like terrified that, you know, AI is going to replace them or they're going to be out of a job and they're, I mean, and that's why we hear about, you know, things like job hugging. I just wrote about, you know, in the Guardian, you know, and micro-shifting and, you know, people that are, you know, practicing different, they're just afraid, you know. So, I'm kind of curious about like just your thoughts of that because you advise, you know, clients of yours. Everybody is implementing and planning to implement some types of AI and technology over the next few years. Employees are going to be stressed about it. What would you say to your client, a business owner, to say, hey, your employees are going to be stressed about this, here are some thoughts on how to ease that stress of your employees to ease their concerns. Just curious if you've got some thoughts on that?

Suzi Craig (24:38 - 24:48)

Yeah, I know. And this is a topic that we're, you know, is every day I'm having this conversation with someone every day. I am not an AI expert. Just that caveat.

Gene Marks (24:48 - 24:48)

Right.

Suzi Craig (24:48 - 26:32)

Like I myself, like we're trying to figure that out at MHA across the board. You know, two things come to mind, and we actually just had a lunch and learn for our staff last week, talking with an AI expert to think about workflow. Right. And understanding if we're integrating all of these robotic tools with the humans, really getting clear how those tools can lift up and actually maximize the value of what the humans offer. Right. So right now, we're... And understanding privacy, understanding where you know, when you're, when you're put, understanding the tools themselves. Right. So, the free ones, you know, you could be putting queries in and getting a lot of garbage back because, if you're not using them correctly. Right. Like, so there's so many different things. And it is by the minute, evolving and changing. And there are environmental concerns and there are all sorts of concerns about what this looks like. One of the biggest concerns, and I've been talking to our youth team, is entry-level jobs. Like are employers building professional development tracks for young professionals coming in or are they thinking like, oh, well, I'll just, you know, use AI to kind of solve those, for those admin, clerical things? And yet how are we supporting, you know, young professionals? Like, I don't know when you started, when I started, I did everything that I didn't want to do because that's just what you do.

Gene Marks (26:33 - 26:35)

A lot of that has been replaced or is being replaced.

Suzi Craig (26:35 - 26:43)

Right, right. Yeah. So how are we supporting the younger generations who are going to eventually be taking over for all of us? Right.

Gene Marks (26:43 - 26:44)

Sí.

Suzi Craig (26:45 - 27:05)

So, yeah, there's more questions than answers at this point, but I would say, you know, the direction I usually send folks is internally think about workflows and systems and how the humans integrate with technology now, and then think about how you want that to be moving forward.

Gene Marks (27:05 - 27:42)

That's great. That is great. All right, final question really just is sort of on a personal level, whether you're running a business or you're an employee at a business, listen, you've devoted your life to this, so what personal advice would you have for people to try and maximize their mental health? What do you do to keep stress out of your life? What have you seen others do to keep some balance in their lives? Again, whether you're running a business or whether you're working in a business, I think a lot of these rules apply. Give me some of your thoughts. What have you seen?

Suzi Craig (27:42 - 29:21)

Yeah. No. And when I talk to wellness experts about this, many of them say some of the similar things, which is, what is your wellness routine for yourself? Right? When you wake up in the morning, I have very specific morning routine that I do that includes meditation and yoga and journaling, walking with my dog. Like, maybe that doesn't always happen in the morning because that's a lot. But somewhere in there, I garden. Like I know there are certain things that I need to shut off. And so what's your sleep routine? Right. Really thinking about those things. What's your detox from digital routine? Right. What are those things? You know, and I don't have, you know, stats in front of me, but they say, like, even if you are doing some healthy habit a day, even if it's like 10, 15, 20 minutes, you're actually changing the neural pathways in your brain to, you know, go in the direction of thinking, like, oh, this is actually good for me and then that helps you build the foundation for doing more and more. And I know it's hard, there's so many competing priorities that we have throughout the day. But if you're not doing at least something to take care of yourself, you know, that adds up, and that gets collected by your mind and your body. And if you're not releasing all of that stress out, it is actually, you know, it's the number one factor in unhealthy bodies, is stress.

Gene Marks (29:21 - 30:21)

It's great advice. It really is. I found in all the years living on Earth that the biggest, you know, relief for stress and the biggest help for mental health is actually Earth. Like, it is not, what we're doing right now is really not mentally healthy. We're, like, staring at video cameras and screens and talking to each other. We're in our home offices or so many people go into an industrial park and work in a building, or they go to an office, you know, center, and they work at. They're like, there is no way that that is, like a healthy activity. And everybody I know, I mean, I don't think you can find a single person on the planet that would argue that when they get out of their homes or their offices and just take a walk in the park or like you said, walk your dog or go out for a bite, be in the sun and look at trees and, you know, and grass, if you do, even for 15, 20 minutes, you literally feel your mind easing up a little bit. You know, something cosmic about it.

Suzi Craig (30:21 - 30:22)

Absolutely.

Gene Marks (30:23 - 30:27)

I don't know, I just, I've learned that that's I think that's something that's also really super important.

Suzi Craig (30:28 - 30:53)

I also think it's just kind of basic physiology. Like our nervous system, our nervous systems are on fire. Like, if you're staring at a screen and you're stressed and you're in fight or flight all day long. Yeah. You need vitamin D from the sunshine and you need to, like, have your feet in the grass. Right. You know, touching grass is a meme, but it's a real thing. It's an actual real thing. Yeah. Your body actually needs that.

Gene Marks (30:53 - 31:16)

Yeah. When you read, like, you know, the science that our bodies are more than 90% water and you're like, you know, I think it's kind of healthy for, you know, you know, for a piece of matter that's 90% water to actually be in an environment where there's other natural, you know, natural forces around it that complements, you know, our physiologies rather than being in an office or a home office or whatever.

Suzi Craig (31:16 - 31:17)

Absolutely.

Gene Marks (31:17 - 31:44)

Seems like that just makes more sense. Well, Suzi, thank you so much for all of your advice and your insights. It is super helpful. Everyone, let's please remember that on May 20 at 12:00 Eastern Time, More Good Days Together, a virtual wellness experience presented by Mental Health America. Suzi Craig is the VP of Workplace at Mental Health with lots of great advice. And Suzi, we'd love to have you back sometime. We can dig into some other mental health issues, but this...

Suzi Craig (31:44 - 31:46)

That was fun, Gene. I love it. That'd be great.

Gene Marks (31:46 - 32:20)

Thank you so much. Do you have a topic or a guest that you would like to hear on THRIVE? Please let us know. Visit payx.me/ThriveTopics and send us your ideas or matters of interest. Also, if your business is looking to simplify your HR, payroll, benefits, or insurance services, see how Paychex can help. Visit the resource hub at paychex.com/WORX. That's W-O-R-X. Paychex can help manage those complexities while you focus on all the ways you want your business to thrive. I'm your host, Gene Marks, and thanks for joining us. Till next time, take care.

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