The Small Business Guide to Providing Competitive Employee Benefits

Bradd Chignoli (00:00)

What we're seeing is when people are satisfied with their benefits, they're using their benefits, they're two times as likely to be holistically healthy. And we know when that happens, they're more engaged in the workforce. They stay at their employers longer. Forty percent or so of small businesses today tell us that they're engaged through a PEO and help their retention and their attraction of their people to be able to offer a much more robust program as being a part of a PEO.

Announcer (00:26)

Welcome to THRIVE, a Paychex Business Podcast, your blueprint for navigating everything from people to policies to profits. And now your host, Gene Marks.

Gene Marks (00:36)

Hey everybody, it's Gene Marks and welcome back to another episode of the Paychex THRIVE Podcast. Now, Paychex recently hosted its Customer Advantage Summit with keynote speakers and sessions focused on product innovation, HR compliance, AI, and more. One of those sessions was presented with MetLife. And it was called Build a Benefits Plan That Retains and Complies. It shared practical ideas for building a benefits strategy that supports your employees, works for your business, and helps you stay compliant. So, in this episode, we're going to take some of the few takeaways from that session. If you'd like to learn more, you can visit the Customer Advantage Summit page to register for a free all-access pass. We are going to put the link to this page in the show notes rather than reading out the entire thing for you, but definitely worthwhile going and checking out. So, to continue that conversation, I've got Bradd Chignoli with me. Bradd, you are the head of regional business and workforce engagement at MetLife. Bradd, you did not participate in this webinar that Paychex and MetLife did, but clearly you're well-versed in a lot of the topics. We're going to be talking about employee benefits for a company. So, first of all, thank you so much for joining us, and thank you for having me. Yeah, you're calling in from the New York area, which is great. Employee benefits are very high on people's minds. I have a lot of thoughts. By the way, I didn't know if, I don't, you know, I don't work for Paychex. I'm a CPA, so I have a practice outside of Philadelphia. And I mean, employee benefits are high on the mind of a lot of people. Before we get started, a little bit about yourself. Tell me a little bit about how you got to where you are at MetLife and also what you do at MetLife.

Bradd Chignoli (02:24)

Yeah, so thank you again for having me. So my journey with MetLife started 28 years ago, right out of college. And so I've been with MetLife my entire career. Kind of started in things like account management, underwriting, moved into the sales organization. And then in the last kind of decade or so, spent my year, spent my years leading some of our different businesses. And today, I lead our regional business as well as our workforce engagement. And what that really means is our businesses that are focused on the SMB market, the small-middle-sized employer market, as well as our PEO business, which is a large business for ours that really focuses in on the smaller employer and the entities that they join to help give them scale as it relates to payroll and benefits. And in addition to that, I lead an organization at MetLife we call Workforce Engagement, which is really all about how we as a carrier can help our employer clients educate and inform their workforces, help them not only understand the benefits as they're going into open enrollment and making selections, but at the same time, helping them understand how best to use the benefits so that they see the value in the elections that they made.

Gene Marks (03:39)

Got it. Is MetLife, tell me the benefits that you guys provide? Is it just health insurance or is it, you mentioned PPO services, but?

Bradd Chignoli (03:48)

Actually, yeah, in the U.S. it's the way to think of it as everything non-health insurance, non-medical, non-pharmacy. So we focus on things like the health side with dental and vision, more about life insurance, disability insurance, and then a number of voluntary benefits that are often in the workplace that employees get to pay for and choose. So think of MetLife in the U.S. primarily non-medical and pharmacy and pretty much everything else.

Gene Marks (04:16)

Perfect. How about retirement plans or retirement plan services? Do you do any of that?

Bradd Chignoli (04:21)

From a retirement side of MetLife, it's not inside of my business. But really, our focus in the U.S. is more about the pension business and often purchasing the assets and the liabilities of various pensions as large employers decide to maybe exit that space and continue pensions where MetLife would be the insurer and the record keeper go forward, but less on the 401(k) side. We actually aren't in that, are not in that business, 401(k) administration.

Gene Marks (04:48)

Alright, that's fine. Okay, so,, you mentioned dental and vision, you mentioned life insurance, disability insurance, and other voluntary benefits. Okay, I'm going to skip over the dental and vision first of all, and I'd love to talk with you a little bit about life insurance, right?

Bradd Chignoli (05:04)

Sure.

Gene Marks (05:04)

So what are your thoughts on offering life insurance to your employees? What do you find some of your smartest clients doing to use life insurance as a benefit that they could provide to their employees?

Bradd Chignoli (05:17)

Yeah, and when you, when you, when you really think about life insurance, the beauty of life insurance is you traditionally, you don't need to educate people on what it does and what it is and what it does. But where you really need to educate people in is what they need. What is the appropriate amount of insurance that they need? And you often think of life insurance during the working years as an ability, if something were to happen, how to secure your family in a way that replaces an income of yours that they were living on in the event of an untimely death. And so if you think about, that's where MetLife and our clients spend a lot of time is how are we educating the workforce to understand the appropriate amount of life insurance they need? Overinsurance is not something that we really look into. It's more about what are your needs? What does your family look like? What are the income levels you have? What were to happen if you were to be the breadwinner and no longer be able to supply that? What's the income levels that your family would need in order to be able to maintain the lifestyle that they have and things along that line? And so it's really a lot about educating, as I said before, and especially all different generations in the workforce today. It's what do, there's a need for life insurance for everyone, but the same amount is not needed for everyone.

Gene Marks (06:39)

So, you know, how deep do you find your clients getting into that with their employees? You know, from a benefit, I know from a tax side, we can offer life insurance, I think up to $50,000 in benefit and it's not taxable to the employee. So that's, to me, that seems like a no-brainer that everybody, you know, every employer should be offering to their employees as a benefit. And then above that, you have to impute the income, you know, and so, you know, because so it gets reported on the W-2, but you know, life insurance is one of those things that people don't seem to buy enough of. Like you just said, they're not educated enough in it. They don't really know what their needs are. So employers can play like a role here. Are you seeing that? And what role, what would you recommend to an employer? I have 10 employees in my company. What would you say to me about providing life insurance or reimbursing for life insurance for my employees?

Bradd Chignoli (07:31)

Yeah, I think it's a few things. One is, over what we all went through in the global pandemic, I think many understood the need for life insurance in a much more material way. As unfortunate as people passed through the pandemic or even in other areas, it's the underinsured that they left was material. And so I think some of what we've all gone through over the past five years has created an opportunity where people have an interest in learning what's the right amount. And then you think about employers. And to your point, most employers, I would say, on average, give their workforce maybe one times their salary, or maybe they do cap it at $50,000 for the imputed income point. But what's really more where people lean in is offering supplemental life insurance that the employee can choose to elect and pay for on their own, but they get the benefits of buying life insurance as a part of a larger entity. And so they have an ability to buy life insurance without medical questions. They have more competitive rates. And so from that perspective, it's a great way to supplement what the employer provides with an offering for employees to purchase more for their families through a competitive offering that's offered in the worksite.

Gene Marks (08:49)

So let me see if I can, if I got this right. I mean, I can buy as an employee, I can buy obviously my own life insurance on my own. What advantage would I have if I bought it through through my employer. And by the way, when you say through my employer, I don't know if I'm using the right terms here because you're not, okay, I mean, how would that actually work?

Bradd Chignoli (09:07)

So, you think about it, buying it through your employer, think about it like enrolling in it like you would enroll in your health insurance in, during open enrollment.

Gene Marks (09:15)

I see.

Bradd Chignoli (09:15)

And so from that perspective, when you're a new hire or you go through your annual enrollment, you have an opportunity to select your benefits. Voluntary life insurance is one of those that are very often on that insurance ballot, that enrollment ballot that you're going through. And the benefits of purchasing it, if you think about me as myself, I'm an individual, and I am buying, if I bought life insurance outside of my employer, I would be treated for me and only me. As you think about scale, being a part of any size client, you become kind of the law of large numbers. The risks get spread across the organization. And with that, they often are competitive pricing. And also importantly is, as you think about buying insurance for yourself, you often have to go through the process of doing medical tests or different tests to ensure that you can, the insurance company can be comfortable giving you that amount of risk. As you think about being a part of an employer of all sizes, that risk is now spread amongst a population. In your group, 10 different folks. And so insurance companies get comfortable looking at the risk as the totality of the employees. versus any one individual employee. So not only do you get typically competitive costs, you also get the ability to buy life insurance traditionally up to like a guarantee issue amount, where you have to answer no medical questions. So the process is simpler, and it becomes something that you can enroll in initially and then continue to potentially look at investing more into your life insurance over time.

Gene Marks (10:46)

And will this insurance, is it portable? Like, say an employee leaves a company, can they take the insurance with them?

Bradd Chignoli (10:53)

Correct. Most times the employer policies are portable.

Gene Marks (10:58)

Got it. And if I'm an employer, I mean, is it as easy as just making the insurance available through a company like MetLife? I don't, I'm under no obligation to fund this insurance, correct? It's just making it available for my employees to purchase, which they can get at, like you just said, hopefully at a more competitive price and also might have less hurdles to go through when it comes to getting medical approval. Is that a fair statement?

Bradd Chignoli (11:25)

Yeah, very fair statement. I think the and I would add to that is how are you as an employer thinking about the education piece of it? And so to your point before, not everyone has life insurance, or most often even people who have it, they don't necessarily understand what is the adequate amount they should have given their personal situation or their family situation. So not only providing the access, but also providing the educational tools to help people calculate and understand that if I'm in this scenario, maybe I need this much insurance, but if I'm in this scenario, I may need less or I may need more, and really giving people that opportunity to not only select it, but more importantly select what's needed for them, and so having the tooling to help them understand that.

Gene Marks (12:09)

This includes both term and whole life and universal insurance? Like, all your choices, different types of products?

Bradd Chignoli (12:16)

Yes, in the workforce, the majority of the insurance is term. But there are definitely whole life and universal life options that some employers provide to their workforce. But I would say that's more the minority, but it's a growing trend around some of the whole life insurance that's out there today. But traditionally, all different types of life insurance are offered in the workplace.

Gene Marks (12:39)

Do you see employers offering this opportunity for their employees to buy insurance for their family members?

Bradd Chignoli (12:46)

Yeah, that's quite common.

Gene Marks (12:47)

Or kids or grandkids?

Bradd Chignoli (12:49)

Quite common. So when you think about the voluntary life insurance that I mentioned before, it usually comes in three parts. Purchasing insurance for yourself, it's often displayed as an increment of your earnings. So if I make $50,000, I could buy one-time salary or two-time salary or three-time salary or something along that line. Then you think of your spouse or domestic partner. you can purchase insurance for them. It's usually simplified at about 50% of what you purchase for yourself, or you may be able to make individual elections for him or her. And then lastly, you're often able to cover your own dependent children. And so those three aspects are what's most common in the workforce, is covering yourself, covering your spouse or domestic partner, and then covering your children.

Gene Marks (13:35)

See, I did that on my own, Brad. Like, I bought, and I shouldn't have. I mean, this really does open my eyes. I mean, I bought whole life insurance policies for my kids a number of years ago, like when they were in middle school. And I was told at the time that it locked them in on the rates that they would pay as well as getting medical approval. And then I paid the premiums all this time and then it built up cash surrender value. And then, as they've now older and getting married, I'm like passing the policies down to them with the cash. It's been a great, I mean, it has been a fantastic thing to do. And I didn't realize that. I mean, I was doing this outside of my company, and I've been telling people, you should do this on your own as well. But are you telling me the message I should be giving to my clients is, hey, you should set this up in your company as a benefit? It will not cost you as a company anymore, but you're providing this benefit to your employees so they can buy this insurance and get educated. about the kind of insurance that they need to be buying for themselves and their dependents. And it's just another way of attracting and retaining employees by offering this. Is that true?

Bradd Chignoli (14:45)

Yeah. So when you think about life insurance in the workplace, it often has two parts. So it's the term life insurance that, that we were talking about earlier that is really thinking about insuring yourselves while you're working. What has been more of a growing trend is supplementing that offering with whole life type programs or permanent life type programs that get to the aspects that you mentioned before, not necessarily during my working years, but more about building assets up that I can then benefit from longer term, even when I'm outside of the workforce. And so oftentimes, or you see more of a growing rate of both of those types of offerings being into the workforce and having relevance to employees on both sides of that.

Gene Marks (15:26)

Makes sense. That makes sense. Do you find that employees will purchase more life insurance as a benefit if they have that better understanding of how much they need and how it can be used?

Bradd Chignoli (15:41)

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's not specific to life insurance. It's more in general in terms of benefits. And so if you think about employers, what employers do very well is they offer their workforce an array of different benefits for people to choose from. What's most important is that I, as an employee, understand not only what this benefits package is, but how it works and what it does. And so when I think about needs that I have, how do I leverage the benefits that are offered to me to take advantage of the need, to take advantage of some of the concerns or gaps that I have that the benefits can help fill? Life insurance is no different. And that's really where it comes down to. We all, I believe we all have a need. What's most important is helping each of us, as we talked about before, is understand what is that need and how do I fill it in terms of if I'm a single individual in my 20s, my needs for life insurance are there, but they're very different than maybe if I'm in my 30s or 40s or 50s and caring for aging parents, young children, both of the above. And so from that standpoint, it's really about how are we helping people and how are employers and insurance carriers working together to help educate on the right amount of insurance and benefits for people to have, to not overinsure themselves, but to ensure that they insure themselves in a way to give them a level of confidence that they have their family protected.

Gene Marks (16:59)

Let's talk about disability insurance, which is another thing that you do get involved in. So do you find, again, I don't want to say an ignorance, but a lack of education when it comes to having disability insurance, what it does for you and how important it is? Give me your thoughts on why employers should be offering a disability insurance offering to their employees?

Bradd Chignoli (17:21)

Yeah, I think the good news is a large amount of employers offer disability insurance, whether it's many times paid for from the company to its employees or offered on a voluntary basis where the employees can elect to cover themselves or elect to maybe even buy up to additional amounts of insurance. So the way I think about it is we think about things like car insurance, insuring your car, and life insurance, insuring your life, and really, it's helping people understand that disability insurance is insuring their income. And so in the event you weren't able to work full-time or maybe even part-time, and you have a loss of income, that's where disability insurance kicks in. And so I think it kind of gets back to that education part is as people are looking at their benefits and looking at open enrollment and deciding where they need to enroll, understanding what my employer provides me at free of cost for my benefits, what does that mean and what does that do? And then in the event I have all these other offerings to choose from, how are they playing a role in what my needs are and helping people connect the dots to what the benefits actually do. And when it comes to disability, it's kind of breaking it down to its simplest form, and that what disability income does is protect your income in the event you're not able to work. And because sometimes it can confuse with health insurance or other types of medical insurance out there. And the reality is, it's extremely different. And so how do you help people understand the differences and the need to have both versus one covering the other?

Gene Marks (18:57)

Got it. Do you find that most of your clients, the employers provide that disability insurance? Or do you feel that they lean more towards making it available, kind of like life insurance, and having the employees buy it on their own?

Bradd Chignoli (19:09)

I think it varies. I think as you get to larger employers, a few hundred lives to even bigger than that, they predominantly pay for it, or at least some level of it, and then provide employees an option to maybe buy higher amounts of it at their cost. On the smaller end of the market, it's probably mixed. Some employers purchase it directly, others offer it on more of a voluntary employee-paid basis. with the tooling to help employees understand kind of what amount, again, kind of like life insurance. What do I need?

Gene Marks (19:42)

Yep. What do you need? What would you, it's easier to say this versus life insurance, I'm just kind of curious, like, do you have disability insurance yourself? And do you, how do you calculate your own disability insurance? Like, what's a general rule of thumb?

Bradd Chignoli (19:57)

Yeah, I mean, for me, it really comes down to a few things. I'm fortunate to work for an employer that provides disability insurance for me at no cost for myself, from both a short-term standpoint as well as a long-term disability should the event I just be disabled long-term. But at the same time, they also offer us an opportunity to purchase more long-term disability insurance, so more of a percentage of income replacement. And so I think that's what it comes down to, is when you think about your role in your family and your income and what level of protection of that income you'd want to insure. And then you got to think about the taxability of it because when an employer is providing it to you, it's a fully taxable benefit. And so why they may be providing 50% or 60% of your income in the event of a disability, now some of that will be taxed that you got to think through. And then also, depending on the benefit that they're offering, it may not cover your entire salary. There may be some maximum of a benefit allowable. And so when I think about insurance for myself or often would talk to employees about that, it's kind of understanding all of that and really making sure that they know what they will be able to take home, and how does that fit into the income they're making today and their ability to continue to pay their bills and the family continuing to run as is. And then there's also, to your point around life insurance, there's also other avenues outside of the workplace to look at supplemental disability on an individual basis. And that's things where I've also looked at to supplement the benefits I get at work.

Gene Marks (21:32)

All right, let's turn to voluntary benefits because you had made mention that you guys also help your clients, you know, offer some of these. So, can you give me some advantage, just some examples of some of the more voluntary benefit plans that your clients like?

Bradd Chignoli (21:49)

Yeah, so I would say, so voluntary benefits takes a pretty large spectrum. So everything from what often is referred to as supplemental health. So think about medical insurance and what are some of these benefits that supplement the medical insurance that you offer? Those are things like critical illness that would pay a lump sum benefit in the event that the employee or their family member had a critical illness like cancer or something along those lines. There's also accident insurance. Having an accident being covered based on what that was, as well as hospitalization insurance. And so the way to think about those is, is really truly a supplement to the medical insurance that you provide. And so they provide an often one-time payment of size to help people manage, but I always say all the costs that come outside of what your medical plan, your deductibles, hospital, like sometimes it's work that you have to stay in hospital, you might have to have your family nearby, they have to have a hotel or they have to commute. All those different costs that come in that are often not necessarily thought about until they become real and aren't going to be covered by a health insurance plan. These programs help to supplement that and provide additional payment for people to cover a lot of these expenses that come out that are not covered by a health plan.

Gene Marks (23:11)

Got it. Is this, do you find many small businesses signing up for these voluntary benefits? Is this something that they like to do and pay for it?

Bradd Chignoli (23:22)

Yes, but it's often not paid for by the employer. It's actually quite rare. Most organizations of all sizes truly treat them as voluntary benefits. So where employees can pay the entirety of the benefit to cover their families and select which ones make sense for them. But where the employer plays a pretty significant role is in the connection of how the benefits work. And so you have your healthcare plan, and then oftentimes these benefits you're enrolling in right afterward, because they're very part and parcel to what you elected on the healthcare plan, to see which of these makes sense for you. And many employers at a growing rate use decision advice and guidance tools that really help people understand, all right, I rolled in this medical plan, and I have this benefit set available, which of these benefits maybe makes sense for me and my family and help them connect the dots? And so those are often great tools to help people understand what the products do and more importantly, what they should be enrolling in.

Gene Marks (24:22)

So what do you do then, Brad, when you go into, again, it's a smaller company, say the company's got, you know, 50 employees, 25 employees, you know, something like that. There's clearly, I mean, you've said it 100 times in this interview that, you know, the education is critical and making sure people know what their choices are, how much insurance to buy, how many, what kind of supplemental benefits they should be buying, whether or not they should have disability insurance and how much, you know, they should have for that. It's a lot of questions to be answered. Is that you guys? Like, does MetLife do that? Or do you tell your clients you need to bring in like a benefits consultant or you need to like have a CPA or somebody come in and speak to your employees? Becuase the business owners don't know this stuff, you know? I mean, so what do you, how does it normally work?

Bradd Chignoli (25:08)

So I would say it's multiple things. So one is the benefits brokers, the benefits consultants are also front are always, usually front and center there with the business owner, helping them select the benefits that make sense for their workforce, decide which insurance carriers are the right fit for that organization to offer the benefits. And then it becomes kind of like a, I would say, multi-party involvement there. So, at MetLife, yes, we do everything you just mentioned. We have a decision advice and guidance tool that we call UpWise that we bring to market at no cost to our clients to help them again, kind of in that enrollment flow, have tooling to help educate, make personalized recommendations versus just a recommendation for people like you, or generically recommendation more about as you answer a handful of questions to get an understanding of more about you, here and your benefits that are being offered. Here is some tooling to help you decide what benefits may make the most sense for you and your family to enroll in. And I say that's all critically important. And that happens usually leading up to open enrollment, which is traditionally once a year. But then what I think also really separates employers that have very strong engagement in their benefits program is what do they do after enrollment? So yes, Bradd, you just enrolled in these benefits. Now, how do I help you ensure throughout the year that you understand them, they stay top of mind, and you're using them? Because some of these benefits, it's, you may forget, oh, I actually have that, and I didn't take advantage of it this year. So how does the MetLifes of the world play a role in connecting data to tell Bradd, you have an opportunity to use this based on this medical procedure you just had, or this event you just had? And how do we play a role in educating that utilization? Because in the end, we know from our studies that employees that not only use, like enroll in the benefits and have a nice array of benefits to choose from, but even those that enroll in them, they have a much stronger view of their employer and the benefits that they're offering because they see it come to life. And as an insurance carrier, we also know as people use them, they're three times more likely to stay in them because they see the value versus those that I'm enrolled in it, I haven't used it, maybe I don't need it. And in reality is the need is probably there, it's just how are we helping you use them throughout the year? And that becomes a critical part of it.

Gene Marks (27:37)

And how do you help at MetLife, Bradd? I mean, like, what is your involvement with clients?

Bradd Chignoli (27:41)

Yeah. So, as I mentioned in the beginning, one of the roles I play at MetLife is leading our workforce engagement organization. And what that means is supporting clients of all sizes. We have a team of folks that is 100% their job is to work with our employers and their benefits brokers to understand that workforce and help communicate not just at open enrollment, but also what are some of these messages and these themes and these different opportunities that we have collectively to engage the team to ensure they're using the benefits that they enroll in, they understood what they bought, they understand how they can exit and how they can use it throughout the year. And we do that in a multitude of different ways. I talked about one with decision advice and guidance, and also we come on site. We'll have teams of our folks come on site to do enrollment meetings, to do education seminars. We can do things virtually, really getting at what we believe is the most important, which is the education front of it. The enrollment and the value of benefits happens when people understand what they're buying, and then they use it and they stay in it. And that's a role we take pretty seriously.

Gene Marks (28:46)

So my takeaway from this conversation is that a lot of business owners can be offering a lot of benefits that we might not be offering right now. They can be voluntary. They can be paid by the employees. It's not necessary that it's going to come at a cost to the employer, but they're out there, particularly on the insurance side, life insurance, disability insurance, other supplemental insurance benefits. If they do make that available to their employees and they couple it along with good education that's provided by a MetLife or somebody like you guys, their employees can make smarter decisions and hopefully take advantage of these benefits affordably and be more balanced because of that. And I think that's something from an employer standpoint, you know, it's kind of a no-brainer. There's just things that we can be offering, again, we're all trying to attract and retain good people, and this is yet another form of benefits that we should be seriously looking at and offering to our people. Does that, have I summed that up okay?

Bradd Chignoli (29:42)

You have. And I think it's, the data is pretty clear. So, in our Employee Benefits Trends Study that we do every year, we spend a lot of time focusing on this. value of benefits. And it's oftentimes always about attracting and retaining employees. But then it becomes how does benefits become more than just an expense? And from that standpoint, what we're seeing is the studies are showing that when people are satisfied with their benefits, they're using their benefits, they're two times as likely to be holistically healthy. And we know when that happens they're more engaged in the workforce, they stay at their employers longer. And then you think in the spirit of talking on the Paychex podcast here is, especially for smaller employers, 40% or so of small businesses today tell us that they're engaged through a PEO. And when it comes to that, the values of the PEOs to the small businesses offer them to offer more at scale and benefits that very large companies offer that they can offer to the smallest of employers at a very competitive cost. And PEOs themselves tell us that benefits and how they think about benefits and communicate benefits leading to them, maybe 75% of them told us this past year that it helped their retention and their attraction of their people to be able to offer a much more robust program as being a part of a PEO.

Gene Marks (31:11)

Got it. Well, Bradd Chignoli is the head of regional business and workforce engagement at MetLife. We've been talking about offering various types of employee benefits for your workforce that, again, can help you attract and retain but also grow your business. Bradd, thank you. The advice has been great, and we really appreciate you spending your time.

Bradd Chignoli (31:29)

Thank you, Gene. Appreciate your time today.

Gene Marks (31:32)

Sure. And Bradd did not participate in the recent Customer Advantage Summit where both Paychex and MetLife put on one session called Build a Benefits Plan That Retains and Complies, but there were a couple of other really great people from MetLife that did participate in this webinar, and I heard it was actually quite good. You can see it for yourself. There is a link to this webinar, the Customer Advantage Summit page, in our show notes to this show. So check it out. Do you have a topic or a guest that you would like to hear on THRIVE? Please let us know. Visit payx.me/ThriveTopics and send us your ideas or matters of interest. Also, if your business is looking to simplify your HR, payroll, benefits, or insurance services, see how Paychex can help. Visit the resource hub at paychex.com/worx. That's W-O-R-X. Paychex can help manage those complexities while you focus on all the ways you want your business to thrive. I'm your host, Gene Marks, and thanks for joining us. Till next time, take care.

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