Celebrity Interior Designer Nate Berkus: Hiring, Hard Clients, and Knowing What You’re Bad At

Gene Marks (00:00)

How do you evaluate your people, and how do you keep them motivated?

Nate Berkus (00:05)

We have a system in place, obviously, from a corporate standpoint, where we have reviews and then we have, you know, raises and bonuses and all of that. We, you know, I'm not a cheap boss. I like the 401(k) plan, and I like full dental, and I like maternity leaves that are paid, and I want to be, I treat the team as if I would want to be treated if I was working for the company as well.

Announcer (00:30)

Welcome to THRIVE, a Paychex Business Podcast. Your blueprint for navigating everything from people to policies to profits. And now your host, Gene Marks.

Gene Marks (00:42)

Hey, everybody, it's Gene Marks. And welcome back to another episode of the Paychex THRIVE Podcast. I am really super excited to have Nate Berkus with me today. Nate is a renowned American interior designer. He is an author. He's a television personality known for his elevated personal design aesthetic. He's also a product designer, and I did mention he's an author. Founded in 1995, his firm, Nate Berkus Associates, handles global residential and commercial projects. He gained fame as a frequent guest on the Oprah Winfrey show and starred in design shows like Nate and Jeremiah by Design. Nate, first of all, thank you so much for joining. I'm really excited to have you here.

Nate Berkus (01:22)

Oh, it's my pleasure. And, Gene, I just have to note you have a slight Philly accent that my mother's whole side of the family has. My grandparents had it. My mother still has it. So it, like, it immediately makes me comfortable in Allentown.

Gene Marks (01:38)

Got it.

Nate Berkus (01:39)

And my grandparents lived on Chestnut Hill.

Gene Marks (01:42)

Got it. So I went to Chestnut Hill Academy when I was a kid and grew up in Germantown. And I'm really bad with accents, so people tell me I do have, like, a Philly accent or a slight accent, and I'm like, I can't.

Nate Berkus (01:53)

I can hear it.

Gene Marks (01:54)

I can't even tell. I'm glad that you mentioned. And, you know, I have to tell you as well. Like, I have had a recent appreciation of design work and interior design work. We had our part. We live right in Center City, Philadelphia. My wife and I, we nested it down here, like, 10 years ago. And so we had an interior designer help us with our apartment just over the past year or two. And it's just. I mean, it's just a skill that's just a unique skill for people to, like, look at a room and. And know what to do with it. So we. Did you learn how to do this.

Nate Berkus (02:25)

You know, I actually don't have a design degree. I have a degree in sociology and French from a liberal arts college, Lake Forest College in Illinois. But my mother was an interior designer growing up. And so I was always surrounded by design as a kid. Wallpaper samples. And our home was kind of a bit of a lab. And then when I graduated from college, I started working at an auction house. And I realized that what was the most interesting thing to me about the world of design was actually the furniture and the decoration and the history of things. Which is why today, almost 30 years later, I really. My firm and I focus on using a lot of vintage things, a lot of antiques, a lot of things from the secondary market and obviously mixed with new. And you have to be aware of technology. But I really got the bug. And my father was the founder of the National Sports Collectors Convention. So I grew up behind a card table with baseball cards. So, like, if you combine those two things, sort of the early sensitivity and awareness of environments mixed with the mentality of being a die-hard collector, I think that's what really set me off on my career at an early age.

Gene Marks (03:37)

I love that. You know, it's funny too, because when I think about when we did our apartment, like, we have a fairly modern design. It's an open space, you know, kind of place. We live in a building where each floor is its own unit, which is great. Yeah. So it's cool. But I'm obsessed with. With, you know, history as well, and particularly living in Philadelphia. Like, I. So, you know, I. We really wanted to make it a point to have like artwork around that was like street scenes of Philadelphia from like, you know, the early 1900s and, you know what I mean, like that kind of stuff.

Nate Berkus (04:09)

Sí.

Gene Marks (04:10)

But it's a challenge for a designer to kind of mix in the modern with the, you know, with the old.

Nate Berkus (04:14)

You know, I think that's always what to me is the most interesting. You know, I've always believed that our home should tell our story. Not only who we are now, but who we've been and then perhaps most importantly, who we aspire to be. And there's a way to translate that into your environment. And that's what I've focused on all these years is really sort of crafting spaces that kind of rise up to greet the family or the people that live there. And it's a deeply personal endeavor. You know, it's a creative endeavor, but it's a very personal endeavor. And I've found that actually the, the big connector is. Is is surprisingly vulnerability. Like I have to be vulnerable with the client to tell them what I'm comfortable with and what my, my take on it and my interpretation. But they also have to be vulnerable and honest with me. I need to understand what stage they're in in life. I need to understand what things have happened to them. I need to, you know, have a, have a deeper knowledge. You don't have to have that. You don't have to have that relationship with your client if you're a designer. But you certainly end up with a home that is much more special in a thousand ways if you do.

Gene Marks (05:27)

I'm going to jump around on my questions and I do want to get into your sort of origin story, but you bring up the clients that you are dealing with and you're in New York, so I'm assuming is most of your work in the New York area.

Nate Berkus (05:39)

It's not. Our principal office is in Chicago. We have a team of around 50 people split between three offices, New York, Chicago and LA.

Gene Marks (05:49)

Okay.

Nate Berkus (05:50)

And we work all over the place. You know, I've been at this for a really long time, built a really decent business with a lot of repeat clients. And I love what I do. I'm not out of ideas. I'm 54. I'm still excited when we get a phone call about somebody's new house.

Gene Marks (06:05)

How many people in your firm right now, approximately?

Nate Berkus (06:07)

Around 50. Around 50.

Gene Marks (06:09)

How do I know, like if I'm hiring, you know, if I want to work with you and I'm a client of yours, I want to work with you. You know, how do you, how do you deal with separating and getting your other people involved in a way that your clients are acceptable, you know, accepting of that, you know what I mean?

Nate Berkus (06:27)

There's really no way to grow a design firm that's that, that with your name on the door without. There's no way to scale it without having projects that you have a very sort of high level touch on. So, you know, most of my clients and the firm's clients know not to expect to see me at every presentation. We're very upfront about that in the beginning. There's certain projects that demand me be there and that's a decision that we factor into the budget because I'm more expensive than anyone else on my team and we're open about that. You know, at the inception, you know, I normally am there for most the projects that I'm handling personally. I'm there for most of the very important pivotal meetings. And then I turn it over to the team to do the secondary rooms and things like that. But the client knows that I've always looked at it before it goes out the door. And if somebody that represents me is suggesting something, it's because I'm suggesting it as well.

Gene Marks (07:29)

You can definitely help me. I mean, I, like, for example, like I, my firm, we do like technology and financial. We're called The Marks Group. So my name is on the firm, you know.

Nate Berkus (07:39)

Sí.

Gene Marks (07:40)

And I've often wondered like, which basically means same as what you just said. I do, I have to get involved in projects, big or small, because it's, that's what people kind of expect. Because your name is on the firm, you know, and I'm wondering like, if you ever considered, you know, an alternative direction. Like you are you, you are sort of straight jacketed into having to do that too because it is your name on the firm. Have you ever considered rebranding yourself or did you ever have that conversation with yourself before you launched your firm? Like, I never had.

Nate Berkus (08:09)

I was 24 years old when I launched the firm. I promise you, I did not have that conversation. I was like drinking beer out of a hat. I was an idiot. But I, but I think that, you know, somehow, and I'm not sure if this is just reputation based alone or what it is, or it's about the efficacy of my team and, and, and how great my staff is. There are many projects in the firm that I don't touch at all. I have a partner in Chicago who is brilliant at what she does. She runs that office. She's got clients coming to her based on her social media, on her reputation. Obviously I pay for the PR around her and promote her as well because it makes all ships rise. But she, Lauren Gordon is extremely talented. And in fact, it's sort of funny. I was on, I've been on a book tour recently and we were in Charlotte, North Carolina, and she said to me, you know, after your book signing, we need to, I'm going to come because I have a walkthrough with these clients who we've renovated their house and you should come. And it literally like I was completely, I tried to be additive to the walkthrough, but, you know, everything had been discussed, every finish had been decided. Lauren was most definitely in charge. The client knew Lauren was the boss. I knew Lauren was the boss. Lauren knew Lauren was the boss. And it works out, right?

Gene Marks (09:42)

You know, I'm curious, you know, as to what your what projects you do decide to get involved in and do you get involved in projects now or are you spending your time mostly. Okay, so give me like, you know, projects come across your desk, you know, what your firm is working on. What are the projects you decide to get deeply involved in versus the ones that you just said you have less involvement with?

Nate Berkus (10:07)

Definitely the ones with a personal connection. Definitely the ones with like sort of top budget, you know, that, that require that. Oftentimes it's personality driven. Like the client won't work with the firm unless I'm a part of the project. And so there's obviously an awareness around that. And then the ones that I think actually are going to be fun for me. I've been doing this for so long that sometimes there's a young couple that comes in and they've got their first apartment and they've got a decent budget and it wouldn't be our biggest project or our longest project or our most complicated project, or even our most creative project. But I feel like a connection to the enthusiasm or the energy around something. And it's interesting for me, I did not have a desk for 15 years. The firm was based in Chicago. We had the LA office. I've moved around a lot and it wasn't until my children, I have two kids, 11 and 8, started school full time that I opened this office in New York City for me to run. I needed a place to go. So often a lot of the projects that come through the New York office that I run, I have a pretty heavy hand.

Gene Marks (11:24)

Yeah, right.

Nate Berkus (11:24)

Yeah. Because I'm here. So sure.

Gene Marks (11:28)

You know, it's funny, even at this stage, like my firm, we've got about 600 clients. There are some projects that do get involved with and you know, I've got a long term client. I mean like literally I don't want to even date myself but like, like 30 years I've been working with these people and I still go out and visit them a couple of times a month. I used to do like financial consulting for them and I still stay involved like a nominal fee and, and I always feel like it's really important to keep your toes in the water, you know. And I don't know what your thoughts are on that. Like is that part of the reason why you continue to take on projects is because you're touching changes, Right?

Nate Berkus (12:04)

Yeah. I mean, listen, I have to keep my toes in the water in several ways because my business is multi pronged. I have licensing, I have publishing, I have the TV and entertainment side so part of me going on television and doing television shows or appearances on talk shows and things like that is keeping my toes in the water in that arena. But in the design firm. You know, I remember many years ago I was at a bit of a crossroads. I was on the Oprah Show regularly. I was pretty famous across the country here in the U.S. and actually it was in, I think almost 300 countries that show. So it was funny when I would travel that people would recognize me in Singapore and I was like, what is going on? But, but it's, yeah, it must be, but it was, you know, it was, it, there was a moment where I thought to myself, look, I've got all this licensing, these products that I've designed that are at, at different points of sale around the country, these deals in place. I've got TV, I've got publishing, I've got, you know, at the time I had two New York Times bestselling books on, on, under my belt. Why am I answering the phone when somebody's complaining that their sofa's late or there's a nick on their dining room table? Like, what? This doesn't make sense. And I realized exactly what you just said. The design firm is actually where everything else was born from. I was a designer first, before I did any of these other things. And it's also something that I deeply, deeply love and feel very connected to. So to me, I didn't feel like I'd have the credibility that I wanted unless I was still very much involved in the, in the day to day design process. It may not have been the most, you know, brilliant financial decision, but I don't think every decision should be based on that.

Gene Marks (13:56)

Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. And you know what, I mean, my involvement still, day to day or week to week with certain clients, it gives me content to talk about.

Nate Berkus (14:03)

I mean, yes, absolutely, because you're looking.

Gene Marks (14:05)

For these new ideas. The other thing I also found, I don't know if you feel the same way, is that it did kind of ground me. I mean, you know, I don't know, say you're traveling, you know, you're a celebrity, you're on the Oprah show, whatever. There is something very grounding about, like, well, on Monday I'm going to be back and getting yelled at at this client because, you know, 100% on the.

Nate Berkus (14:23)

Table, you know, well, I'm in the service industry.

Gene Marks (14:26)

Sí.

Nate Berkus (14:26)

You know, what we do is a high-end service and a creative service. But it, but make no mistake, a designer is, you know, I've always viewed myself, hey, well, let me just say, universally, I think we're all the same. I believe in that. I don't see people for their place in society or their bank account or whatever it is as a person, but beyond that, as a business person. We've all heard, I'm sure your audience has heard the horror stories, the snobbery that goes on of the design community in this rarefied air, and people speaking in a vocabulary that other people don't have just to make them, intimidate them into spending money. I've never subscribed to any of that. So, you know, for me, you know, somebody trying to impress me is the least interesting meal I'll ever have. It just happened to me the other day in some city. I was seated next to somebody who wanted me to know how important they were, and I just thought, oh, my God, like, please kill me and are you going to finish your fries? But, you know, it is humbling, and it should be humbling because, you know, to work in an industry that is based on service, fundamentally, you've got to check your ego at the door. And everybody that works for me also has to check their ego. We have lines that we don't allow to be crossed after 30 years in business, obviously, but that's a different conversation.

Gene Marks (16:01)

Okay, you have been doing this for 30 years, since the age of 24. I still want to get to your origin story, but even. But I have more questions just about current.

Nate Berkus (16:09)

Yeah, yeah, I like this.

Gene Marks (16:10)

You are in an industry, I mean, we deal with technology and financial, and there's a level of, there's a level of difficulty, you know, with clients in doing that. But, Jesus, I mean, I can't even imagine the clients that you are dealing with. So you've been doing this for 30 years. You have not jumped out the window yet, but you must deal with some pretty tough clients. So what have you learned? What can you share with us that you've learned about dealing with difficult clients and difficult customers?

Nate Berkus (16:42)

I think first and foremost, you know, you've got to advocate for yourself and your team and your process.

Gene Marks (16:48)

Okay.

Nate Berkus (16:49)

It doesn't matter who somebody is, but when somebody feels like they know how to run a project better or they know how to run a renovation differently, or they, you know, and they're used to being told yes, and they've hired all these people around them, the owner's reps, and all these things that people are very surprised to hear no. And we don't offer. I'm sure you experience this too. But, you know, we don't, we don't just say no without a reason. We say no because we've built a foundational set of principles, of ways of executing projects, of ways of double-checking and triple-checking every detail. And when somebody comes in and doesn't have any respect for that and wants something faster or wants something that breaks from the way we know things work for us, I say, no, go do it yourself.

Gene Marks (17:47)

Right.

Nate Berkus (17:47)

You know, that's, that's, that I think, is probably the most important thing I've learned over all of these years.

Gene Marks (17:52)

Do you fight customers? Have you ever raised your voice in a customer or a client?

Nate Berkus (17:56)

I've raised, I have, I've raised my voice only when I, I'm a little bit of a mother hen because I have very little turnover in my offices, especially amongst the executive and the senior team. And so when it comes to me or when I witness somebody being disrespectful or rude, I have, we have like a zero tolerance for it. And we're lucky enough that we, you know, have an established enough business and we have, you know, great clients and great relationships with, with clients that, you know, when somebody takes that tack with us, it really gets them nowhere. And I'm very, very happy to put them in their place. And I don't, you know, will I raise my voice? Sure. I actually don't really raise my voice. Like, I don't raise my voice to my kids, I don't raise my voice to my husband. Like, I, That's a rare occurrence for me to get that upset. But I'm very, very firm and I'm very, very clear and I'm, you know, I know I'm a decent communicator. And I'll say, look, I'm not trying to make this more complicated, but like, this is not going to work. So if you feel like you want to, this is how you move through something. We don't need to be doing this together. Like, it's, it's, it's very clear to me. I'm happy to execute the project, but we do. We've done this for 30 years. We require you to respect our process. Just like we. I'm. You're requiring me to deliver something that is hopefully a bigger dream that you could have dreamt for yourself around this.

Gene Marks (19:33)

Okay, what's your approach to dealing with problems? You know, you are dealing with construction people, you're dealing with freight companies, you're dealing with a lot of moving parts on Your projects, and just, like, stuff happens all the time. And then I'm sure then you have clients that get, you know, angry because it happens. So when that happens, which I'm sure it happens. Already happened 30 times today.

Nate Berkus (19:57)

Exactly.

Gene Marks (19:57)

What's your approach to dealing? How do you do it?

Nate Berkus (19:59)

You know, I like accountability. I love accountability. I think it's super important. I like when people jump in and admit that they've made a mistake immediately or at least acknowledge that someone else has made a mistake. Our clients are paying us to run the project and create and craft the spaces. So we are not in control of every vendor like you just mentioned. I mean, we have, you know, furniture makers and the guy who makes iron and New Hope and, you know, whatever. It doesn't matter. But. But the point is, is that they're working through us, and we're the funnel to all of that. So really, the first thing out of my mouth is, you know, I see this. You're not wrong. If it's a mistake on our end, there's absolute. It's instant. It was our mistake. We will rectify it. That is part of the benefit of working with an established company, I think, in any industry. But there's ownership, accountability, and honesty in every situation. And they may not like what the actual answer is. We can't get a hold of the guy that's making your railing. You know, he dropped off the face of the earth. But I am on it, and I have, you know, five potential solutions, and I'm aware of it, and I know it, and I feel it, and I'm sorry, and, you know, but I. But, you know, this is the reality, and this is what we're dealing with. And I found myself as a customer being diffused almost instantly. When somebody says, you're right, and here's my ideas to navigate it, what I can't stand is. What do you mean? What are you talking about? There's nothing to see here, folks. And that's very juvie kind of behavior, especially in my business.

Gene Marks (21:53)

Yeah, I agree. People should just step up and be accountable if they make mistakes. People make mistakes. Just own it.

Nate Berkus (21:58)

Just own it.

Gene Marks (21:58)

It happens and fix it.

Nate Berkus (22:00)

And fix it's how we run it internally, too. I love when somebody says, I ruined this. I'm like, great, all right, let's fix it.

Gene Marks (22:07)

Speaking of internally. So again, you've got. Again, I'm just comparing your business and mine, which are. They're service businesses, but they're different. Like, when I hire people, I'm looking for people with Certain technical skills in a CRM application like Salesforce or, you know, or, you know, Microsoft Office, you know, you. Yours is way more softer than that. You know, I mean, you're hiring people that have to have that sort of creative and business like approach, project management. People you need as well, people that can understand how to read, you know, a budget and. And adhere to it at the same time turning around and saying, this would look great in your room, but not this. I mean, that's a tough find. So where do you find people, Nate? And. And also, how do you. Are you like me? Where, like, you read through the resumes, you have other people talk to a candidate, and then in the end you're like, I just guess I'm going to take a leap of faith with this person and hope that what they're saying is going to come true. How do you evaluate people to hire?

Nate Berkus (23:05)

When I opened the New York office, I hired the team that I wanted to be around. And about a year later, things were going haywire across departments. And I called Phoebe Craig, who runs my company in the Chicago office and has worked for me for 27 years. And I said, what happened? And she said, you're terrible at this. This is not. You're literally like, this is you. I didn't ask anybody. Yeah, you didn't ask anybody if what they thought. You hired these people and, you know, you liked their haircut or you liked their this. I don't even know what you were thinking. She goes, this is not the job for you. So, you know, I said, okay, you're right. Well, you know, we need to reorg this office. I need your help. You know, who should interview besides me? And she said, you know, do you want to interview them? I said, not really. I want only, like, the top candidates. And then I'll have, like, sort of an informational conversation just so I can get a sense of their personality. But please, like, it was called out that that is not my skill set. And I. And. And that's fine.

Gene Marks (24:17)

That's great. That's great. So basically, you know, you've identified the stuff that you do well, and you hopefully have other people in the organization that can do things that you don't do as well. And everybody, you know, has that. Let me ask you about Phoebe as a, you know, as a good example. So 27 years she's been with you. That's a reflection of you. I mean, like, that's. She was a great hire, obviously. Obviously, you treat her well. What do you do for employees? Like that to keep them working for you. I mean, you know, somebody like her I'm sure is going to have plenty of opportunities elsewhere. It's tough to retain talent. It always is. How do you evaluate your people and how do you keep them motivated?

Nate Berkus (25:01)

We have a system in place obviously from a corporate standpoint where we have reviews and then we have, you know, raises and bonuses and all of that. We, you know, I'm not a cheap boss. I like the 401(k) plan and I like full dental and I like maternity leaves that are paid and I, I want to be, I, I treat the team as if I would want to be treated if I was working for the company as well. So that's always kind of been a governing principle for me. But you know, I think in my firm it goes a little bit deeper than that. We really know each other and for the most part we really like each other. And part of knowing people in a mid-sized business is, is what kind of what we just talked about, knowing who's good at what, sort of highlighting that, paving the way within their job description so that they can be their skill sets are matched to their actual responsibilities. And you know, in design, as a concrete example, I have one person who's phenomenal with floor plans and spatial planning, but they're terrible with fabrics. So we bring somebody junior on that team to deal with all the fabrics and no one feels bad about it. They know the junior person knows they're great at pulling together a fabric scheme and the senior person doesn't want to do it anyway because it's kind of the thing you always put off when you're not good at something. We're very, very honest as a company with each other. We are the management, Lauren, Phoebe, me, we have very honest conversations about who's doing well and who's not, who's challenged, how we can support them. It doesn't always work out, obviously, that's super unrealistic. But I think I've created a company where people's best qualities are celebrated and I think that that has a lot to do with the longevity above and beyond that. You know, I'm pretty easy once I have somebody's faith and confidence and you know, you want to take an extra day here or a week here. I don't at this point. I think you've got to start treating people like family if they've worked for you for that many years. So they know that they've got the autonomy and the freedom. They also aware of the expectation that Their work will be done and that we won't be, you know, the company won't suffer for any reason. But I've never said no to a senior person wanting to take another vacation or, you know, and we do funny things. I've helped buy homes for. For people on my team. It's a lot of women that work for me. They like nice stuff. Everybody gets a gold watch at 10 years, a Chanel bag, you know, like, it's, you know, I like that stuff, too. And I know that it makes you feel good to, you know, be acknowledged in that way. Sometimes it's something tangible and something expensive you won't buy for yourself.

Gene Marks (28:10)

All right, let's go back to the origin. You started this company at the age of 24. I frequently, you know, I meet people that are of that age, even younger. Everybody's got that sort of startup buzz. They want to be an entrepreneur. They want to start things up. And I'm. My standard advice has always been like, dude, you're in your early 20s. Work somewhere for 10 years and get knowledge of a business and an industry. And then, you know, then start your company once you're, you know, in your 30s, because it seems like you would have a lot more ideas and maturity to do that. You didn't do that. You started at 24. What, you know, what are your thoughts about starting a business that young? Would you have done? Yeah, well, your example is not a great one because you, you've scaled it successfully. But do you think that's a good road for people to start at that age?

Nate Berkus (28:59)

I, no, I don't think it's a good road. I think it can be an exceptional road, but it's rare.

Gene Marks (29:07)

Right.

Nate Berkus (29:07)

I think that. And I don't think I'm special, like, for having been able to start at that age and build a business like I have. I think I got very lucky in many ways. And I'm also a big proponent of when a door opens, you have to walk through it with your head held high, and you have to be very conscientious about reputation from day one and all of these things. But what I will say is that I think the world has changed since I started my firm 30 years ago in extremely significant ways. And I think internships are wildly important. If you're not going to go work for somebody. I was an intern. We take interns. Not the internships where you're just running to get the coffees and whatever, but the internships at companies where they really want to involve you in the operational side and the creative side and whatever it is. I don't ever look back and wish that I would have had a boss. You know, I, I worked for an auction house. I worked there for two years and then I quit to start my firm. But I think somewhat distinctively, I already had kind of a client base in Chicago at that time. People that I had met through real estate brokers and people, clients from the auction house. So I wasn't starting hoping the phone would ring. I started it because I had an opportunity in front of me to actually start doing what I wanted to do.

Gene Marks (30:37)

By the way, while you collect your thoughts, it's key advice. When I started my business, I was actually working at a full-time job and I worked, you know, overtime on my business, attracting clients that I could transition out, you know what I mean, as opposed to just taking a leap. And hopefully, like you just said that the phone was going to ring and it sounds like you did something similar. Right? I mean you, yeah, you had built up at least a prospective revenue stream so that you were not just.

Nate Berkus (31:03)

I cultivated relationships with people in Chicago that I knew were ancillary to design, real estate, auction house trust and estate lawyers, you know, just a group of people and I got to know them. I wasn't really hustling at the, at that point because I was, you know, I was working for the auction house. But people were watching what I was doing at the auction house and then, and then they'd say, my boss, the woman who owned the auction house said, will you help me redo my living room while I was working for her? And I thought to myself, I don't really want to work for anybody. I'm much better. I know myself. Knew myself well enough then that she had a Monday morning meeting that you had to be in the door at 8am or you had to pay her five bucks. And I was never in the door at 8 a.m. on a Monday. And $5 at that time was my lunch money one day. So it was really annoying. I was like, I can't believe it. But I just couldn't get in the door. And I really do think I started my business so I wouldn't have to be on someone else's schedule. You know, I really do think that was like the core thing. Like if I wanted to, you know, get there at 9:08, I could do so. And you know, even with all my responsibilities, that still is one of the small luxuries that I retain for myself. I have to be certain places at certain times. But, like, my team knows that if I land in a city, don't book me an hour after I land. Give me a beat to unwind and check in and unpack and, you know, get myself together.

Gene Marks (32:41)

Final question. I'll let you go. It's great. I, you know, I have many more questions to ask you, but we have limited time. But you had mentioned just a few minutes ago about, you know, when the door opens, you know, you take the opportunity and walk through it. And I actually just kind of wanted to follow up on your thoughts on that. I imagine that there are. Yes. You know, like everybody else, there was a, there was a percentage of luck that got you to where you are, you know, but there is, you know, there is the action of taking advantage of that luck and doing something with it. I am sure I gained positive that your first appearance on the Oprah Winfrey show, you were probably shitting yourself and you're unsure as to whether you're going to do it and whatever. And you probably said to yourself, no, I'm going to do this, and it's outside of my wheelhouse, but I'm. I'm going to, you know, I'm going to do this. And I'm sure that you have had other projects that you have taken on that you weren't, you know, again, outside of your wheelhouse, but you're like, no, this is. I'm going to give this a shot because I think I can do it and whatever. Talk to me a little bit, you know, you know, give us some takeaway thoughts for other business owners that are here about, you know, about following opportunities. Walking through that door that opens two things.

Nate Berkus (33:48)

One, my father was an entrepreneur. He had marketing businesses, and he founded the National Sports Collector Convention in Anaheim, California in the 70s. You know, I had a, I, and he always said to me, even as a kid, bet on yourself because nobody else is going to. So that's been like a mantra for me. You know, anytime I've been uncomfortable walking through that door, the first makeover on Oprah, the first meeting with Linens and Things about developing a product line, I found myself at a at a conference room table knowing that I had no idea and no experience in what I was about to embark on. But I've always bet on myself because I knew no one else was going to. Very important lesson my father gave me. I will also say that equally as important, and I use myself as an example here, I was asked to be on the Oprah show not to be a regular on the Oprah show not to sign a contract with Harpo. I was asked to be a guest on the Oprah show and and when I did that first segment, I was the last person to leave the location. I made sure all the producers were taken care of. I gave it every single thing I had that first time. And then I did that exact same thing the second time. And then I did that exact same thing the 70th and the 80th and the 200th time that I appeared on that show. It wasn't Oprah Winfrey was on the air. The Oprah Winfrey Show aired for 25 years. There were six segments for every episode. Think about how many people had the opportunity to be a guest on The Oprah Winfrey Show. It's not everybody. I'm aware of that. But over 25 years, taping two shows a day, six episodes, six segments per show, there were a lot of people that walked through those doors. And for me, it's never been about how you walk through the door. It's what you do to stay in the room. And I knew that my first makeover was going to be as my last makeover was going to be as important as my first. Not just the quality of what I was doing or the ideas that I was bringing to the table, but the effort. And so I never rested on my laurels throughout that entire experience. And I still don't today.

Gene Marks (36:29)

Nate Berkus is an interior designer, an author, a television personality as well. He runs his own firm, Nate Berkus Associates with offices in three cities. Nate, great conversation. I really appreciate you taking the time to come on. Lots more to talk about someday in the future. But for now, you've given us a lot of great thoughts to take away with. So thank you very much for your time.

Nate Berkus (36:50)

Thank you Gene. And enjoy the Center City apartment. Sounds great.

Gene Marks (36:54)

We will. We certainly we are already. Do you have a topic or a guest that you would like to hear on THRIVE? Please let us know. Visit payx.me/ThriveTopics and send us your ideas or matters of interest. Also, if your business is looking for to simplify your HR, payroll, benefits, or insurance services, see how Paychex can help. Visit the resource hub at paychex.com/WORX. That's W-O-R-X. Paychex can help manage those complexities while you focus on all the ways you want your business to thrive. I'm your host Gene Marks and thanks for joining us. Till next time, take care.

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