How T-Mobile is Supporting New Technologies
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to Paychex THRIVE, a Business Podcast, where you'll hear timely insights to help you navigate marketplace dynamics and propel your business forward. Here's your host, Gene Marks.
Gene Marks (00:19):
Hey everybody. Welcome back, my name is Gene Marks, to another episode of the Paychex THRIVE podcast. We are thrilled to have you and I'm really super happy to have Mike Katz with me. Mike is the President of Marketing, Innovation & Experience at T-Mobile. First of all, Mike, thank you so much for joining me.
Mike Katz (00:36):
Thanks, Gene. It's so great to be here. Thanks for having me.
Gene Marks (00:38):
So first of all, looking at your title, is that CMO, is that below CMO? Where are you in the whole organizational structure of T-Mobile?
Mike Katz (00:49):
I guess we need to get more creative with our title. Yeah. The way our organization is set up, I have responsibility for essentially all the traditional marketing functions. I actually have four CMOs that report to me that work closely with the different lines of business and run the marketing for those different lines of business. But I also have responsibility for product at T-Mobile, we have a product organization. I have responsibility for our wholesale business. So, a lot of the work that we do with MVNOs, so companies like Mint Mobile and companies like Google Fi who buy network assets from us and then repackage them under their own brands. All that is within my team as well.
Gene Marks (01:34):
How long have you been with the company?
Mike Katz (01:38):
I'm going to have my 25-year anniversary this year.
Gene Marks (01:41):
Mike Katz (01:41):
So, I started when I was in middle school, as you can tell, and 25 years later here I am.
Gene Marks (01:46):
I mean, did you start out selling phones in stores? Are you one of those guys or was it a different path?
Mike Katz (01:52):
Yeah, close to that. I was in college and I needed a job and I essentially got a part-time job with the predecessor company of T-Mobile, which was a small regional cell phone company called VoiceStream Wireless. And my first job was I would sit in very, very illustrious retailers like Circuit City and Sears and help their salespeople sell VoiceStream cell phones. And I did that in part-time basis for my last two years of college and then graduated and was offered a full-time position launching at the time, the biggest commercial market for VoiceStream, Chicago. So I went to Chicago about a year before we launched that market and helped launch our services there.
Gene Marks (02:40):
Mike, I promise you we're going to get to T-Mobile and mobile technology and talk about all that, but it's a crazy story. So, you're really kind of at a low-level salesperson or sales support person right out of college with this organization and now you're at an extremely high level within the company. I mean obviously, there's luck involved, but how did you get there? I'm curious how that happened. Is this like 20-hour days of work? Was it just right place, right time, combination of different things? I'm fascinated by that.
Mike Katz (03:18):
Yeah, I think things like this are never one thing. I feel extremely fortunate and I... I mean I suppose you could say luck plays a role in a lot of these things a lot of times. I think there's a couple of specific things that helped me. One was... And I think this is important for everybody that's in any kind of job is, it's really about results. You have to be able to demonstrate that you can get results and I fortunately have been and been able to assemble teams throughout my career that have been able to really drive meaningful change and meaningful results. I also think... I mean there's definitely sacrifice that comes with these jobs too. Early in my career, I moved seven times all over the country. Fortunately, the first couple, it was just me. So the only person I was affecting was me. But the last couple of moves I did, I was married and I had kids and so we picked up the family and moved around.
Mike Katz (04:19):
So, I do think there is some sacrifice and a little bit of going where the opportunity is. And as part of that, and there's one thing I... It is funny, I just recently did a... I was asked to do the commencement speech at my alma mater a couple of weeks ago and one of the things I really focused on when I spoke was this idea of taking risks in your career and not letting the structured plan that you have for yourself dictate what you do and cause you to miss opportunities that are right in your face.
Mike Katz (04:58):
And I think for me, I can point to a couple of different jobs that I had the opportunity to do that were presented in front of me that I was really scared to take and I was like, "Ah, I don't know if I want to do this job." And if I hadn't done them, there's no way I'd be in this job that I'm in right now. And so, one of the things I also feel like helped me, and I always tell everybody that ask me a similar question is, if the next job that you take doesn't terrify you some, then you probably shouldn't do it.
Gene Marks (05:30):
Yeah, it's great advice. And you also have to think to yourself, what's the worst that can happen? I mean honestly. Completely if you fail and you lose your job, there's plenty of other jobs that are out there, but you can't be 80 years old and looking back and saying, I should have done this or I should have done that. You got to go for it.
Mike Katz (05:45):
Absolutely. I think you always regret more what you don't do versus what you do, always.
Gene Marks (05:51):
A hundred percent.
Mike Katz (05:51):
Gene Marks (05:52):
Yeah. You also brought up a good point about, you moved around a lot so there was like sacrifice. I worked at KPMG for nine years and I was a senior manager of... One of the main reasons why I didn't become a partner is because I didn't do what you did. My wife was not willing to move. We had little kids. She moved all the way from London when we got married. So, you make those decisions and it's been fine and it's been a very good decision. But if you want to succeed in a corporate environment like you are at... I truly believe in it. It's just a lesson for people watching or listening to this that are younger. Whether you're owning a business, you're a manager in a business, people that hire we're... I mean, we're always looking for people that are just going to get stuff done and not say no. I mean, that's really what we're looking for. And it sounds like that was kind of the way you've been and the way you probably still are.
Mike Katz (06:44):
Yeah, I hope so. That's what I aspire to be. And it is hard. One of the tricks for me is I told my wife when we moved to Seattle in 2007 that it would be a two-year move, and now it's 2023, we're still in Seattle. So I do get reminded about that every once in a while. But yeah, I mean you got to roll the dice on these things, and at the end of the day, in any company, performance and results do matter. And it's not just taking the risk, but it is demonstrating that you can execute. And you have to be able to point to tangible examples of where you have been able to put your fingerprints on things and it's translated into results. And I think having that in the back of your mind as you're working on a project or working on a new part of the business is really, really important. You want to be able to show small successes and get points on the scoreboard.
Gene Marks (07:48):
Yeah, it's great advice. It really is. All right, mobile technology. So, it's changed a little bit since you first started back in the VoiceStream days. Let's look back in the past a little bit and then we'll look towards the future first of all. Again, our audience are business owners like myself. How's the environment for mobile technology changed in the past just few years that... Just explain to us where we are compared to where we were just a few years ago.
Mike Katz (08:22):
Yeah, I mean I think we're at the very beginnings of another huge generational change in mobile. And if you go back, call it 10 years ago, if you remember what happened in mobile, we went from an environment where your phone was a thing that you talked on and maybe sent some text messages to the 4G era in mobile phones really opened the door for the mobile internet. One of the things that Mike, our CEO often says is, "Over the last 10 years, content is moving from its linear format onto the internet, and at the same time the internet is moving more and more mobile," and 4G really was the catalyst for that. And if you look at what happened in the business environment, companies that really embraced that and got behind it went from unicorns into the biggest companies in the world.
Mike Katz (09:21):
You think about the Googles, the Facebooks, even some of the startups at the beginning of the 4G era like the Ubers and the Airbnbs. And companies like that that embraced mobile as their business platform really thrived in this 4G era. And now we are I think really starting to get into what is another big generational shift with 5G. And 5G has got a ton of ingredients that make this by far the most powerful mobile platform that we've seen to date as the next generation would suggest. But I think it's converging with an environment, particularly around generative AI and big data that is really going to change the way eventually, I think that all of us work and all of us interact with our devices.
Mike Katz (10:18):
I think what we're going to see here over the next few years is going to be as big as when PC computers became a thing, as big as when mobile initially launched. I think we're really hitting this next big step change in technology with generative AI and these large language models that are powering it. And you're seeing bits and pieces of it with things like ChatGPT. But I think over the next couple of years, fundamentally the way that a lot of work gets done is going to change in a way that we haven't seen in a couple of decades.
Gene Marks (10:53):
I heard...Elon Musk was interviewed. I talked about this before on my podcast. One of my favorite podcasts is a guy named Lex Fridman who does a... He is an AI guy and a technology guy. And it was like a three-hour interview with Elon Musk about a year ago, and they were talking about self-driving cars because he's trying to do that with Tesla, and Musk was saying how it's a lot harder than he thought it was going to be. Now if he says it's a lot harder than he thought it was going to be, that clearly means that it was pretty hard.
Gene Marks (11:22):
One of the...the biggest obstacle that he has and still has is that for a car to make a decision, a self-driving decision, it has to take into account all these factors of an environment all around just like we do in our minds, and then make this split-second decision otherwise it runs over a puppy. You know what I mean? And the processing power that's needed, the networking power, the broadband power that's needed to process this stuff, it's just not there yet. Which brings to my question for you is, we're at 5G now, whatever that means. I'm assuming there's 6G, 7G, 10G, I mean there's got... For all that AI to work that you're talking about, it's going to need more powerful networks, and is that what T-Mobile is doing?
Mike Katz (12:16):
Yeah, we are. And look, I still think we're very, very early in the 5G days, and that use case that you just brought up is a perfect example of what I think the promise of a 5G network is. Because in order for all of that AI to work in that situation, in a car that's on a road somewhere, you need the processing to happen, but it needs to happen and react in a split-second. And I think one of the big changes that you see from 4G and 5G and the network is latency. It is moving from a dozens and dozens of milliseconds of latency in a 4G network to... I think you're going to see... And you're already seeing some places where this happens, networks that perform it way under 10 milliseconds so that when that dog jumps into the road and the car has to recognize that and stop that, it's backed up with a network that can process and put the right commands to that car in time for it not to ruin some poor kid's day that their dog got run over.
Gene Marks (13:24):
Yeah, I think there's still ways to go and there's a lot to go within 5G. Let me ask you some other questions. And again, as a business, these are questions that I get from my clients as well. When they're looking for different carriers and they consider a T-Mobile, you have your competitors as well. So two-part question. First of all, I mean you guys have been around for a while and your competitors have been around for a while. Is there a point where you guys reach a commodity level like one's no different than the other, or do you still feel that there will always be differentiation between the major carriers like yourselves and your competitors?
Mike Katz (14:04):
I mean I think there'll always be differentiation, and I think it happens in two dimensions. One is on the core product itself, which is our network, and I'll come back to that in a second. And then the second one is on... I'll call it value proposition. I think in both areas you see some really significant differentiation between the companies. If you look at network and if you look at what's happening in 5G, and I think generally in our space there's a little bit of a perception that these are big phone companies, they're not the digital native companies. They're really slow-moving Goliaths and how they were five years ago, probably today the phone companies aren't that much different. And I think that couldn't be further from the truth.
Gene Marks (14:50):
Because by the way, what you just mentioned, that is the perception. That is what I hear from my clients.
Mike Katz (14:56):
Yeah, I definitely think that's the perception. And I think it's actually one of the biggest opportunities for T-Mobile because if you look at what's happened to our company over the last five years, our core product, our network is been completely transformed. And one of the big catalysts for that was our merger with Sprint. And one of the things that happened with this merger with Sprint is Sprint had a huge amount of unused mid-band wireless spectrum in the 2.5 GHz range. And I'm not going to geek out on wireless spectrum unless you really want to. But one of the reasons why that was important is what we're seeing with 5G is 5G is really... Where the what we call the Goldilocks area for 5G, where the most impactful 5G use cases and experiences are happening is in the mid-band spectrum ranges.
Mike Katz (15:58):
Wireless spectrum really is in three different ranges. We have low band, which is kind of like AM radio, where we can put a tower up and it covers a large area, but the performance isn't as powerful. Mid-band, which has a nice balance of being able to have a large coverage area, but also really, really strong performance. And then millimeter wave, which happens up in the really high frequencies where the performance is incredible, but the propagation is really low, like a pane of glass or a hand will block the signal. So, mid-band is where we're really seeing this 5G race play out. And T-Mobile is in an incredible position in mid-band spectrum, and we've got more deployed than anyone else.
Mike Katz (16:44):
And what happened is, the Sprint acquisition really became a catalyst for T-Mobile to... Admittedly in the 4G era, T-Mobile was the laggard. We were the last to deploy 4G and we were playing catch up for a decade with Verizon in particular on 4G. But we looked at this Sprint acquisition as an opportunity not just to launch 5G but leapfrog everybody else on 5G. And that's exactly what's played out. In the three years since we bought Sprint, we have deployed the biggest, most powerful 5G network in the world. And just to give some context to that, our 5G footprint in square miles is bigger than AT&T and Verizon combined. Combined. We cover at the end of this year 300 million people with 5G. And that's important because where we're going to cover at the end of this year that our two main competitors haven't even announced plans at any point in the future to get there.
Mike Katz (17:46):
So, this merger gave us at least a two-year headstart, but if you look at some of the innovations that we are continuing to launch, we're the only network that has a fully dedicated 5G core, meaning our 5G traffic flows through a 5G network core. Our competitors, their 5G traffic goes through their 4G core first, which gives you smaller coverage rings and higher latency. We were the first to deploy that. And then we've got some spectrum aggregations and some other capabilities that we've launched in the network that's given us this two-year lead that we don't see going away anytime soon. Two years from now, we will still have a two-year lead on 5G with between AT&T and Verizon. So I think there's still significant differentiation that's happening in network in particularly the 5G technology.
Mike Katz (18:45):
And then if you look at the history of our company, particularly over the last decade where we have really stood out and where we've both changed the industry but also set ourselves apart from AT&T and Verizon is how we've built our value proposition. We have prided ourselves on disrupting the industry and changing the rules of the industry in favor for our customers.
Mike Katz (19:13):
Looking at the pain points that existed. You go back... You don't have to go back that far, like 10 years ago, think about how painful this industry was if you were a wireless consumer. You had two-year contracts that really had no meaningful benefit, there was no unlimited plans, you couldn't ever upgrade your phone. If you went international, you were coming back with a $2,000 bill. Those were all things that we systematically launched innovations against and not only set ourselves apart by differentiating our proposition for customers, we forced the rest of the industry to change. So now all of those things I just said have all been solved at AT&T or Verizon because they went through multiple quarters of losing customers and we're like, "Oh my gosh, we better do something." And they ended up changing their proposition.
Mike Katz (19:57):
So, we are going to stay on our front foot for that. We actually just launched another one of our, what we call these Un-carrier Moves in April. And you're not going to see us stop. We will continue to look for opportunities in the marketplace where customers aren't getting treated right and unleash big T-Mobile innovation against them, which is going to keep us, I think now and in the future, materially differentiated from what AT&T and Verizon do because we just run this company with a different ethos. It's centered around customers, it's listening to customers, and then going and doing what they're telling us to do, which is not the way these other guys run their companies.
Gene Marks (20:36):
Well, it's funny. I mean everybody will have their point of view. I can tell you about the entire industry overall. I mean, I've been using cell phones since the BlackBerry, and you can't even compare it to the way it was 10, 20 years ago. And where my mobile device might have been a source of headaches for me even a few years ago, different things, I have to admit that I never really think about it. And that's something to be said not only just for T-Mobile but for the entire industry has improved that much. Even buying a phone nowadays has become so much easier for a business owner. I mean, you can do it online and set it up remotely instead of having to go in the store and going through the nightmare that it is with some of these retail locations, which I'm sure you remember.
Gene Marks (21:24):
I mean a pat on the back for all of that. And it's not just for T-Mobile, but it's for the industry. You talk about innovation, you talk about experience, I mean a lot of it is the devices that business people are using. I'm kind of curious what is exciting you about the future when it comes to hardware? So I've got two things that would excite me and then you can comment on that, but then also you can add. First of all, I'm curious to get your thoughts on battery technology because I travel a lot and it's still a fistfight for an outlet in any airport to charge phones. Everybody deals with that issue. And I'm curious, but somebody that's in the center of all of this, there's so many businesses that depend on this stuff, where you see that going and what might T-Mobile be doing about it? That's number one.
Gene Marks (22:08):
The other is also just virtual and augmented reality devices. Apple just released their latest headset, which is cool for gamers. And I don't know if you're into the metaverse or if you're a gamer, but it's just ain't... I'm not wearing that headset. Do you know what I mean? Like a complete idiot doing it. You know what I mean? Until we see mobile technology, like a pair of glasses that looks like a real pair of glasses where I can switch into a virtual world and have a meeting that way. I don't know. I guess I'm turning back to you to say, okay, so Mike, you're in the middle of this, you're seeing where things are going. Tell us where you see some of this hardware going that you're going to be using.
Mike Katz (22:51):
Yeah, maybe we can hit the augmented reality first.
Gene Marks (22:56):
Mike Katz (22:57):
It's such an interesting space. And I do think it was really interesting that Apple made their big announcements at their Developers Conference there. It's a space I've been following for a long time. We have the Oculus glasses at home, my kids use them. One of the thing-
Gene Marks (23:16):
Which, by the way, unbelievable when you put them on. When you wear them, it's like they're incredible stuff. Super fun.
Mike Katz (23:23):
Yeah. I mean, you really feel transported into another space. I think the challenge that they've had up to this point is there's not a lot of content. There doesn't seem to be a big robust developer community building lots of experiences, and what I've-
Gene Marks (23:39):
But isn't it because with the... When they introduced the iPhone, there wasn't a lot of content either, but because the iPhone was so awesome, a flock of developers came to it and built content around it. So it was kind of driven by the hardware, I guess is what my thought is.
Mike Katz (23:55):
Yeah. Which is why I'm really interested with Apple going into this space because I think Apple could be a huge catalyst to spark a developer revolution on this platform. That just hasn't happened up to this point. And this might be the first step in... I mean the iPhone is such a great proxy because if you think about where the iPhone started and how the hardware evolved, the hardware really started to evolve around the App Store and all the content that was being developed by developers. And my guess is the AR, the hardware itself is going to follow a similar path. That this is probably a first step of many for Apple and others into this space. And as the content becomes much more robust from a really thriving developer community, my guess is you're going to see a lot more innovation in the hardware, get smaller, more glasses actually look cool, actually be something that you could wear on a daily basis. But I think the content and the developer community needs to catch up to that. But Apple being in there feels like a big, big monumental change in that space.
Gene Marks (25:13):
I still say, can you see yourself sitting in a meeting in a conference room somewhere with six other people and everybody's wearing these headsets? That's just not going to happen.
Mike Katz (25:22):
Yeah. I kind of hope not. I think it's a little bit weird. But I could see, and we have seen. You've seen some of this with HoloLens and stuff, some really interesting use cases that I think are valuable. You think about stuff like-
Gene Marks (25:35):
Mike Katz (25:36):
... employee training.
Gene Marks (25:36):
Mike Katz (25:37):
Yeah. I mean there's tons of training applications for it. You think about even use cases in our business where we send texts to go service cell sites and you have somebody that's relatively new or an issue that's uncommon. And being able to use technologies like augmented reality to be able to identify and provide real troubleshooting steps, I think those things could be really valuable. But I also am bullish on innovators and developers and I think we'll see use cases that none of us have thought of end up emerging on that platform.
Gene Marks (26:16):
Are you confident that your networks... And when I speak about yours, T-Mobile with the industry stuff. If that explosion happens, you'll be able to service that demand? Does that concern the powers that be at all?
Mike Katz (26:32):
No. I mean that's kind of what our network is built for. Our network is built to support use cases like this. Because for augmented reality to really work, for it to be able to do things like visually see something, recognize it, and provide you prompts, or even more simple to not have you feel queasy when you're using it, which is one of the things, I don't know if you get that experience. When I put those on for more than five minutes, I feel really queasy. Driving to lower and lower latency solves both of those things. And that's really what our network is designed for. In a way that has huge advantages over a way, a lot of these are being deployed right now, which is really connecting to wifi, which is relying on whatever the fixed network you're on. If you really want to take AR experiences to the next level, it needs to work wherever you are. In which case the only technology that will support that is mobile network.
Mike Katz (27:30):
So, our network is built to do that. And I would say one good demonstration of the fact that our network is built to do that is I do think the first killer use case that's been built for 5G is what's happening in fixed mobile wireless or fixed mobile broadband. We announced last quarter we have over 3 million customers that are using our wireless network as their home broadband network, where it's displaced cable or fiber or whatever their previous incumbent was. You could never do something like that where you have a broadband experience that's comparable or better to what you were getting with cable, where you're using not just dozens of gigabits but hundreds and hundreds of gigabits because it's powering all the experiences inside your house off of the mobile network. That could not exist in a 4G world, that's only happening in a 5G world. So I bring that up as an example because you asked about are we worried about capacity and these things overwhelming the network. No, because right now we're supporting over 3 million customers that are using hundreds of gigabits on their home broadband.
Gene Marks (28:41):
And I do want to get your thoughts on batteries, but just because you bring that point up, it does mean that the future for a lot of businesses is that they won't be needing their hardwired internet connections or their local cable providers or whatever, that they can be running their businesses on their phone networks, their phone systems cloud-based over their mobile broadband provider. And they shouldn't feel concerned or uncomfortable that the network wouldn't be able to handle that kind of traffic because that's the issue. And you have to realize that a lot of business owners are older. I mean half of us are over the age of 50. So we remember back in the days of dial-up and all that stuff that you just... There's no way you could have run your... This wasn't even thought. But that's not the reality today or in the future, is it?
Mike Katz (29:33):
It's not. And I think because a little bit of that fear, I think small businesses in particular get taken advantage of. Because you look at what broadband alternatives have historically been out there, broadband's kind of been a monopoly. Businesses oftentimes have one choice of who they can go to for broadband, and oftentimes the connection that's being sold to them is the exact same connection that they're buying at home, but because they're a business, it's jacked way up.
Gene Marks (30:04):
Tell me about it.
Mike Katz (30:05):
Which is kind of a ridiculous thing because businesses tend to use far less network asset than people do at home because-
Gene Marks (30:14):
We're not watching Netflix.
Mike Katz (30:16):
... depending on your business you're... You're not watching Netflix and you're not gaming and doing all those kinds of things. So, the model has never made a lot of sense. But I think that fear of either not having a choice or seeing some of these other choices like, hey, this is the most important technology in my business and it has to work, has prevented people from switching. But what we're seeing, and I think what the industry is seeing is more and more businesses are seeing that there is an alternative and an alternative where you don't have to sacrifice any of the performance. And I think that is a game-changer for businesses. You shouldn't have to pay hundreds and hundreds of dollars for your broadband in your small businesses, there's better choices now.
All right, we're almost out of time here, by the way. And I feel bad because I wanted to get some marketing and lead-generation tips from you. That's going to have to wait for another day. However, your advice at the beginning of this conversation about how you grew within the company is really well taken. But before I let you go; I did ask you before about hardware and batteries. I mean I only have to know because it really it's close to my heart, man. I mean, you're in the middle of this stuff. Are we going to be seeing improvements, like significant improvements in battery? What is your forecast here?
Mike Katz (31:27):
I mean I think the answer is yes. I mean, keep in mind, we don't manufacture the devices.
Gene Marks (31:31):
I know you don't.
Mike Katz (31:34):
But I will say, one of the benefits of 5G is it is much more efficient on battery and power usage. And so I think as 5G gets more widely deployed and as it continues... There's a lot of evolution that still will happen inside 5G. I think you'll see without any changes in the actual battery technology, the batteries becoming more efficient. I do. I'm still bullish that... It doesn't feel like throughout this whole course of wireless, if you look at the last 20 years, that there has been big step changes in battery technology. Which is kind of weird because you've seen it across every other hardware component. So I'm still bullish that there's something out there.
Mike Katz (32:20):
One capability that I know has been... I've seen some tests of it that I still am very interested on is the truly wireless charging. Not the I stick my phone onto a pad and it's physically touching it, but they literally walk into a room and your phone begins to charge because it's in proximity to a wireless charger. I think that could be a real game-changer. And I know there's several companies that are testing that, and I think that would be a really, really powerful change in the way that we use our phones when that technology-
Gene Marks (32:51):
And maybe that's the answer. Maybe that's the answer. And health concerns aside because I'm like, oh my God, I cannot even imagine what waves are hitting my brain. But if you think about it, if airports were equipped by something like that, the minute that you walk into an airport, your phone is just charging solves the battery issue altogether. So maybe that's the way to do it. Mike Katz is the president of Marketing, Innovation & Experience at T-Mobile. Mike, thanks so much. Your insights have been just fantastic. I want to wish you best of luck. I'm a fan of the company and I'm sure you guys will continue to kick butt in the mobile broadband world. So again, thanks for spending time with me.
Mike Katz (33:26):
Yeah, thank you so much. And that was a lot of fun. I really appreciate it.
Gene Marks (33:30):
It was a lot of fun and I learned a lot.
Gene Marks (33:30):
Hey everybody, thanks so much for joining us. My name is Gene Marks. You've been watching and listening to the Paychex THRIVE podcast. If you need any help or advice or would like to suggest a guest for our podcast, please visit us at payx.me/thrivetopics. We will be back again next week with another episode of the Paychex THRIVE podcast. Again, thanks for joining. We'll see you again soon. Take care.
Gene Marks (33:51):
Do you have a topic or a guest that you would like to hear on THRIVE? Please let us know. Visit payx.me/thrivetopics and send us your ideas or matters of interest. Also, if your business is looking to simplify your HR, payroll, benefits, or insurance services, see how Paychex can help. Visit the resource hub at paychex.com/worx. That's W-O-R-X. Paychex can help manage those complexities while you focus on all the ways you want your business to thrive. I'm your host, Gene Marks, and thanks for joining us. Till next time, take care.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
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