Wharton Economist Dr. Corinne Low: What Women Want in the Workplace

Gene Marks (00:00)

You have to understand that you mentioned, even in this day and age, I come across many clients that people working for them for 20 years or more. I mean, it is not unusual. People want that stability. And you hire people, every person you hire say, I want this person to be working for me for the next 20, 30 years. And if that's the case, particularly if it's a female employee, you have to know at the very outset that if this person is going to be married and going to have kids, there's going to be ebbs and flows in their availability and their output, but it's the long game that you have to play, and I think you need to go into a relationship that way. Does that make sense?

Corinne Low (00:37)

Exactly. You're making an investment, and you're making an investment over the entire life cycle of that employee with the company, and then I think that investment's gonna pay off.

Gene Marks (00:46)

Welcome to THRIVE, a Paychex Business Podcast. Your blueprint for navigating everything from people to policies to profits. And now your host, Gene Marks.

Gene Marks (00:58)

Hey, everybody, it's Gene Marks. And welcome to this episode of the Paychex THRIVE Podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We have a great guest, but before we turn to our guest today, I want to take a moment and share a surprising statistic with you. Did you know that 34% of business owners told Paychex that they spend over 10 hours a week on HR tasks? Now, that actually doesn't come as a surprise to me as a business owner, but it is a statistic and obviously we understand why. I mean, we're involved in hiring and onboarding and benefits and compliance. And, you know, it's a lot to handle. So imagine if you could clone yourself to handle all of this. You know, it kind of sounds like a dream, but that's where Paychex comes in. From finding the right people to streamlining their first day and even helping you manage benefits and compliance along the way, it's like having an entire HR team that works just the way you need. And I have a lot of clients personally that can attest to Paychex services. So, if you're interested, go and take a moment to find out more information, go to paychex.com/MeetPaychex. That's P-A-Y-C-H-E-X.com/M-E-E-T-P-A-Y-C-H-E-X, paychex.com/MeetPaychex. We will also put a link to that in the show notes. Okay, so let's get to business right now and jump into this great conversation I've been looking forward to. I have with me now Dr. Corinne Low. Excuse me. Corinne is a Wharton economist and author and a fellow resident at the city of Philadelphia. Corinne, first of all, thank you so much for joining us today.

Corinne Low (02:44)

Thanks so much for having me.

Gene Marks (02:46)

Yeah, I'm thrilled to have you here. Where's your favorite place to go and eat in Philadelphia?

Corinne Low (02:52)

Oh, my gosh, I have so many favorites, but love Talula's Garden. Love all of the ethnic food. There's an Ethiopian spot right where we live that we go to, like, you know, every other week.

Gene Marks (03:04)

Great answer. And mine is a Parc restaurant as well. Talula's is fantastic. Yeah, Parc is on Rittenhouse Square. And it's always like, it's like a, you know, celebratory thing. And I always tell people when they come into Philadelphia, you should go and visit. That's a good fun place to have dinner. So, we could talk about all...

Corinne Low (03:20)

You feel like you're in France for the night, right?

Gene Marks (03:21)

You do. You feel like you're in France for the night. It's really, really cool. And they recently opened, the owner just recently opened, I think it's called Borromini. It's an Italian version of Parc, also on Rittenhouse Square. We are wasting so much time talking about food in Philadelphia and everybody is, they've tuned in to learn more about, you know, about you and your book. So first of all, we're going to talk about your book called Having It All. But before we even get to that, if you can just give us a little bit of a background, Corinne, of yourself, tell us what you do.

Corinne Low (03:50)

Yeah. So I am an economist. I'm a professor at Wharton and I have been studying the economics of being a woman for 15 years. And I started with that in graduate school. I did my Ph.D. at Columbia and I started studying the economics of fertility. And since then I've continued, you know, studying the economics of the trade off between work and family, the economics of marriage, the economics of divorce. And so that's kind of what, what I bring to the table, my expertise. When people hear I'm an economist, a lot of times they ask, you know, like, oh, can you give me advice about like, taxes or stock picks? And I'm like, absolutely not. But I can give you advice about, like, when to have kids.

Gene Marks (04:29)

Well, you know, it's critical, critical advice. And as we know that, you know, I mean, women make up, you know, more than 50% of the workforce depending on what studies that you read. You know, women entrepreneurs and business owners now are a significant part of business ownership. Not as significant as they could be. And hopefully that will change. Women are still not raising the kind of, you know, capital that men are raising, and that's gotta change as well. But you know, I, whenever I hear those statistics, whenever I hear people getting frustrated about that, I always have to say, you know, give it some time. I mean, it's changing. And obviously, you know, when, you know, things are a lot different than they were even 10, 20 years ago. So I think we're heading in the right direction. Corinne, you have, you have a new book out, right? It's called Having It All: What Data Tells Us About Women's Lives and Getting the Most Out of Yours. So talk to me a little bit about the book. What do you try to accomplish with this book? What, what's it all about?

Corinne Low (05:28)

Well, I wanted to share the information that I was finding in my research with a broader audience because, you know, not everybody listening, like reads academic journals and that's where my research had been published. And I wanted to like, the stuff I was finding I feel like it's critically important for women to understand. And some of those things are some of the forces that are acting on us that are actually making it harder than it was a generation ago and that's the stuff that a lot of people don't know when they feel like, oh, as a working mom, I feel like I'm juggling all these balls and I'm dropping them all. What's going on? Is it just me, you know? And when I look at the data, there's kind of a reason for that. And so in the data, for example, we see that moms today spend twice as much time with their kids as moms a generation ago. And that's because the science of child rearing has changed our understanding of parental time as an input into our kids' development, their human capital, their future life outcomes, that is all new science. And it really started taking off in the 1990s. And that's where we see parental time with kids starting to skyrocket. So, you know, any parent listening, they know they have the elaborate bedtime routine with their kid, reading stories, talking about the day, doing all that socio-emotional regulation. I grew up in the 80s, my bedtime routine was go to bed, right? And so, we don't realize how much things have actually changed. That when we go back a generation, you know, parents were not sitting on the floor with their toddlers, they weren't doing extended breastfeeding and pumping when they went back to work. They were not doing homework at the kitchen table with their school aged kids and they weren't driving to travel soccer games on the weekend. So we are spending much more time with our kids and it's therefore squeezing the time that we have for other things. And for women, you know, what so often tends to give is like our leisure, our sense of wellbeing, our ability to take care of ourselves. And so that right, that statistic right there, that's one of the reasons I wrote the book. Because until you have the information, until you know what the research says, you think maybe it's just me. And so, what I always say about the book is it's not in your head, it's in the data.

Gene Marks (07:31)

Right. You know, I would think that would be the opposite. I mean, that's a fascinating piece of data. I mean, if somebody were to ask me, do you think mothers today are spending more or less time with their kids than they were 30 years ago? I mean my image of 30, 40 years ago is, you know, the housewife that was at home all day and you know, the husband is the one that bringing in the paycheck and you know, she's the one that's spending the time with the kids. And you're telling me that that's, that has changed. But you're right, something is squeezing. This is why it's important for us to know this. What's being squeezed is, is a mother and you know, a woman's their personal time, right? And they have to themselves, how are they, how are they dealing with that?

Corinne Low (08:10)

So I think we've been told that what we need to do is just like lean in and try harder and you know, and want it more. And I think that that's not working. I think that that's leaving, you know, we actually see that female happiness has been declining precipitously. And as much as we'd like to believe that things actually getting better, actually progress on the gender wage gap has stalled. So around the same time when parental time started going up, which was the 1990s. And I know this is tough news for a lot of people listening because I think that like Nirvana was roughly like five to 10 years ago, but it turns out 30 years ago was 1995. Right. So that wasn't the like 1950s housewife. So, that was when this parental time started going up and that was the same time the gender wage gap started plateauing. And so, I think we're actually going to need some new creative solutions. And I think a lot of you listening are know either business owners yourself who are facing these challenges, but then you're also employers of women and kind of wondering, well, what are some of the answers? And I think again there the data has some answers.

Gene Marks (09:09)

Okay, so let's talk to business owners and managers. Okay. I mean, you know, you know, our workforce is 50% female. How can we be using some of this data to, you know, to help our female employees be more productive and better balanced and happier?

Corinne Low (09:25)

Yeah. So, one of my favorite studies here is by economists Alexandre Mas and Amanda Pallais. And they show that when you offer women kind of different job scenarios, so it could be like a 9 to 5, five days a week, or you offer them work from home, you offer them flexibility where they can set their own hours, or even flexibility where they could choose to work fewer than 40 hours. Okay. And everybody thinks that that's what women want. But actually when you offer them those things, they're not willing to give up very much pay to kind of get those things. And in fact, in the case of being able to set fewer than 40 hours, they don't even want that job. Okay. So those things are not actually that appealing to women. But by contrast, if instead of that nine to five, 40 hours a week job, I offer them a job where it's called employer discretion. The employer sets your hours so the employer can say, hey, today you're working 6:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m., but tomorrow you're actually working, you know, noon to 9:00 p.m., right. For that job, they're willing to give up almost 40% of their pay to avoid that employer discretion. So, they would much rather take a lower paying job to be able to stick with those structured hours. Okay, so what does that tell us? It tells us that women don't actually need flexibility. What they need is boundaries. And we're calling that flexibility because work has kind of sprawled into all hours of the day. And so now the fact that you actually want to spend the evenings with your kid or you want to spend the weekends with your kid, we're calling that flexibility. But that's not flexibility, that's structure. And so what we know again from the data is that healthcare is a profession where women outnumber men. Nursing is a very inflexible profession. Right. You're work, you might be working a 12-hour shift, you are there in the hospital, you can't, you know, leave in the middle of the day to go get your kid. It's very inflexible and yet it's 86% female. Why? Because it's very structured. You know exactly what shifts you're on for and what shifts you're off for. Even if you have an on-call shift, you know which hours you're on call for so you can arrange backup childcare around those specific hours. And we see that that structure is working for women. And so that's a lesson that I share with business owners to say, you know, I know that business owners, a lot of them are saying we value in the office time, right. We don't feel like we can give this endless flexibility. It turns out you don't need to. If you can have clear structure with your workdays, and even if you have that type of shift work, it's really just about planning in advance to post those schedules early enough that people can plan childcare around them. And then let's say you do have emergencies, you do need on-call time. Well, take a page from the healthcare profession and have designated on-call shifts. So instead of saying everybody's on call at any time, everybody can get asked to work on the weekend. Pull out that calendar when you're planning the beginning of the month and say, this is your weekend. When you need to have backup, you know, you might get called in. This is somebody else's weekend. This is somebody else's weekend.

Gene Marks (12:32)

You know, again, you're blowing my mind here. And it makes complete sense because the narrative that I'd be thinking is, I mean, I have 10 employees in my company, right? So, and you know, seven of them are women. And my whole outlook was like, give them as much flexibility as possible because that's what people want. Right? People want... And your message is it's really not so much flexibility. It's more structure. Right. And boundaries, so...

Corinne Low (12:56)

It's predictability.

Gene Marks (12:58)

It's predictability. And it makes, it's like, we all want a plan, we all want structure. We all want, and it kind of almost, you know, reaches back. There are numerous studies done on companies that offer unlimited paid time off to their employees and they found that their employees in many cases take less time off when they have unlimited paid time off because there's a FOMO thing going on. There's, they don't know if they should be taking the extra hours or not and whatever. And they wind up like, you know and that's not good, you know, for the employee you want them to have for mental health purposes, to take time off. So, you know, many employers that, you know, they look at their female employers, employees and they're likely thinking well, we're giving them plenty of flexibility. We've told them they can, they can work whatever hours they want, they can work from home, whatever. Whereas we should be thinking of, of no, we want to be making a schedule for these employees that they know what to expect coming in the future. That's, that's brilliant.

Corinne Low (13:54)

That flexibility I think it translates into everybody being kind of loosey goosey with time. And so, if flexibility for your employee then means okay, but then I email you at 9 p.m. and expect you to be able to respond and that's actually not the boundaries that we need.

Gene Marks (14:08)

That is, that is great. You know, the, you know, this applies to, to women, but I'm assuming this also applies to men as well to male workers. I mean, we also like that kind of structure.

Corinne Low (14:19)

Yes. So men also disliked that employer discretion role, but women were willing to give up so much more pay for the predictability because women are on average more often the kind of primary one responsible for the child, even if both parents are involved. Right. A lot of times the assumption is hey, it's going to be mom. And there's also a lot of female-headed households where she might be the sole parent. Right. And so more often because she has those childcare responsibilities, that flexibility or that predictability, I'm sorry, is more important to her.

Gene Marks (14:52)

It's great, that is great stuff. Okay, let's keep going. Some other topics that you're covering in this book. You know, one of them has to do with burnout. You write about that there are, there are hidden costs, you know, to burn out and, and you make some suggestions of some changes that employers can be making to try and retain their best talents and I guess, you know, female talent in particular. Talk to me a little bit about that.

Corinne Low (15:17)

Yeah, so one of the things, the big messages in the book, right, is that we've all been given this message that what we need to do is kind of maximize career success. Like what we need to do is like lean in at the office. That's what's super important for female equality. Right. And I want to empower people by seeing the data of, you know, our time and how it's just not adding up anymore and also how uniquely some squeezed women are during this period. And I call it the squeeze. When you have young kids at home and you're still making career investment, I see that their time on housework and childcare goes up like a mountain. And when that time on housework and childcare goes up like a mountain, then the inverse of that is their time for work and leisure. And that goes down like a valley. And that's when we actually see time inequality pop up between women and men is during that midlife period when they have young kids at home and men are getting more work time, more leisure time, because they're doing less childcare and housework. So when we know that that's kind of not adding up, it empowers you to say, I need to chart my own path here. Right. And the path might mean I need to be really ruthless with my time during that period. You know, when I'm in the squeeze. And that doesn't mean that later I can't lean in, and it doesn't mean that earlier I can't lean in. Right. But I think that data also is important for employers to know about, because I think sometimes there's this sense, and I have had people literally say it to me where they say, well, look, you're saying that women's time is different, is it worth the investment for me to try to hire these female employees to try to retain them? And they say, look, if you look at the data, this peak period of the squeeze, it's maybe three to five years where they're most crunched, right? I'm not saying it's not harder the other time as well, but that peak period is really, you know, three to five years. And so you, if you put that kind of structure in place and you kind of help your employees get through that period, you're going to be able to retain them throughout their entire working life. And with how much it costs to kind of recruit good talent, with how hard it is to find good talent, those investments are worth it. We've made investments upfront in hiring more women, but what we often see is that they drop out kind of over the course of the lifecycle. And so if you kind of make an investment in that period of the squeeze of working with your employee to say, what do you need during this period? Then you can make sure you both come out the other side. And some of those investments, I think they're less costly than you think, because again, you know, the data doesn't show that women need to work from home all the time. The data shows that, you know, women need to structure their work around childcare. And so, for example, using the technology that we have, if you just implement a rule in your office that says, hey, in-office work ends at five every day, and then from five to eight, if you need to block off your calendar to have family time and dinner. Block it off from five to eight. And if we have anything that's urgent that needs to happen that day, you can log back in remotely after 8 p.m. okay. After kids go to bed that time is much less costly for women. And so that's why when we see women who are self-employed, a lot of times they're working after bedtime. Right. But the kind of traditional workplace doesn't necessarily allow for that. So just having that rule in your office to say, hey, in-office work stops at 5 p.m., every mom and really every parent in your office is going to breathe a huge sigh of relief. And it's much less costly to you than offering full-time work from home, which a lot of employers are saying doesn't really get them. The, you know, the efficiency and the spillover benefits of having your employees in the office together.

Gene Marks (18:57)

I'll tell you what concerns me about that, and I'm interested in your thoughts on that is just potential discriminatory practices. You know, I mean, say you're trying to show special accommodations to women, particularly mothers with young children. No good deed goes unpunished because if it doesn't work out and maybe you have to let somebody go or you know, they leave the company, you're almost giving them a little ammunition like, well, you know, he, you know, he knew all about my home life and you know, and he still let me go and I kind of feel like that's the reason why he let me go. You know what I mean? Like what, what are your thoughts for employers to try and navigate not, you know, being discriminatory in these policies and trying to do it in a, in a transparent way, you know?

Corinne Low (19:43)

Well, I personally think that these policies should be in place for everybody. So, this policy of kind of in office work ends at 5 p.m. and then we can do, you know, I mean, I think that that that's actually going to work for everybody because it's rarer and rarer that picture that you had in your mind of, you know, the, the housewife and the dad with the briefcase and the kiss on the cheek. Right. That is a rare and rarer household model today. And so even most of your male employees, they have a full-time working spouse, right? So they also want to share in these childcare responsibilities. And I think it's going to add to the richness of your male employees lives as well. And it's going to make you a more competitive employer for them as well. And so, I think it's figuring out the practices that align with the research that you can offer. And again, when you say work from home, a lot of people say, I can't offer that to everybody, so maybe I'll accommodate somebody for six months when she just had a baby. Right? But it can't offer it for everybody. But when instead it's, hey, you just need to make it work from home after 5 p.m. and maybe work from home one day a week on Fridays. That's also something people really value because then you can wait for the plumber, right? Then you can, you know, take care of that package delivery that you need to get where they keep leaving the slip on your door. Right? So something like that is much less costly for employers. And then they're able to say, oh, I could actually do that for everybody. And then there's really no concern about that.

Gene Marks (21:08)

Okay. So, Corinne, there's been just this year with the new, you know, tax and spending bill that got passed, you know, has enhanced childcare credits. I have, you know, a lot of, you know, companies that I know, a lot of clients I know offer flexible accounts for, you know, where they can pay or reimburse their employees for childcare, independent care, you know, costs and get tax deductions for doing that. There are significant tax credits available for building your child care facility, even if you partner with other businesses. So that, you know, because this child independent care has become such a big, big, you know, issue. So I'm curious where, you know, what your data shows about that? I mean, do you think that stuff works? Is that, you know, as an employer, should we be leaning into these types of childcare benefits for our employees?

Corinne Low (22:01)

Yes. Well, let me back up for a second and just explain, like, why are childcare costs exploding? And the reason is the same data that I shared with you at the beginning about how we're spending so much more time with our kids. Well, that stemmed from a greater understanding of child development, child psychology. So infant daycare used to be 20 infants in a room with a single caregiver because you just left them in the crib and you threw a bottle at each one, one by one, and you didn't necessarily need to pick them up and hold them. Right. Well, now that we understand that it's crucial for later human capital for literally your wages when you're a grown-up, for you to be held and talked to as a baby. Right. Well, we had to change our model for childcare. And so now regulated infant daycare is usually a four-to-one ratio, four babies one caregiver so they can hold each one in turn. Guess what? That's way more expensive than that 20-to-one ratio. And the toddler room with 30 kids and the T.V. on is way cheaper than the one today where you have the enriched toys and you have again the six-to-one child to caregiver ratio. So those costs are skyrocketing. When inflation came down recently, childcare costs were the only thing that continued to rise. And so absolutely, our employees are getting squeezed by childcare. And because women are sometimes they're still more frequently the second earner in their household, that means that if childcare costs are too expensive and she's not getting the help she needs with childcare costs, then you're going to run into a retention issue because her household is going to start saying, is it worth it for us to have you go to work when your paycheck is basically going straight to childcare? So absolutely. If you are able to take advantage of some of those tax credit to more efficiently compensate her with childcare than with pay, it's going to end up being a win-win because to her pay in childcare, a dollar in is a dollar out. Right. But to you, you're getting that tax benefit of doing it through childcare. So absolutely, it's a concern for employees and absolutely it's something that employers should try to max out on using those available policies.

Gene Marks (24:08)

So, we've talked about childcare credits and what employers can do to try and, you know, help their employees maximize that. We've talked about ways to help your female employees in particular, but really all your employees, avoid burnout. And that's through more specific hours and you know, which gets back to, you know, not necessarily flexibility, but more structure. Right. And boundaries. Because that's what people want. So those are all good things. That's a good way to run your business. And I think it does apply to, you know, all genders, not necessarily just, you know, females, but more importantly to females. So in the last few minutes that we have, you know, we haven't, we've only covered like a small percentage of the stuff that's in your book. But I'd love you to share with us again, you know, we're employers that are listening to you right now or watching you. What else, what other considerations should we be making? I mean, you know, we want to hire, you know, female workers. We know, obviously, it's a different demographic. We want them to be productive, we want them to be happy. We want them to be balanced. We want to make, we want to profit off of them if we're, you know, an employer. So, all those things, you know, are important to us. What are the types of benefits or what else should we be doing to really kind of maximize, you know, the return on investment that we're getting with our female employees particularly?

Corinne Low (25:28)

So, I want you to think across the lifecycle. Okay? So for especially women, but really for all employees, but especially for women, it's easier to make investments in your 20s before you have kids. It gets most costly when you have young kids at home. Right. And then it gets easier again when your kids go to school. So, if you're taking the long view and you hope to have those employees for 30 years, right? If you really run that type of business where you have that long-term employee retention, think about that lifecycle of the employee and say, okay, great, this is a period we're going to, you're going to invest, you're going to shine. And if there's this period where you need to have a role with greater boundaries on it where you're not able to kind of give that extra, right. We're going to figure out how to do that. But make it the business path. You know, when you're taking the highway and you have an express and then you have a business path or a local path, okay, make it the local path where that person's able to slow down. Right. And still stay on that parallel track because then when her kids go to school, now she's able to rejoin the express lane. And too often, businesses set this up as kind of a one-way exit where either you leave entirely or you downgrade your career in a way where there's no way to rejoin that express lane when you're ready. Right. And so you want to think about how do I keep this career moving in the same direction and make it possible that when she does get that time back, she's able to lean in again. And then knowing that too many other employers have made this mistake of having there be these one way exits, well, you get to take advantage of that because there is a tremendous amount of underutilized human capital from women who are in their 40s, late 40s, whose children are now in full-time school and they got pushed out by somebody else kind of not having those good management practices. Right. And now their human capital is incredibly underutilized. And so, I think sometimes we shoot ourselves in the foot because on the resume we don't want to see a gap, we want to see, okay, what was your last employer? And we want to see that it was recent. And if you see, oh wait, yeah, you have the experience I need as a CPA, but your last employer was, was eight years ago. That tends to make us nervous as employers. But that is where you're going to get a deal, actually. That's where you're going to get a huge return on your investment because that person has the human capital, they have the experience, but they had been sidelined by unfortunately, some of the problems structurally, you know, with the way a lot of jobs and careers work. And so I really recommend kind of explicitly targeting that demographic by thinking about what your recruitment policies are. And so if you do use an HR firm, if you've given them a rule that says, hey, they have to have this most recent experience, it has to be within the last two years or whatever, you might be unintentionally ruling out some of these people where you're actually going to get a better ROI because it is harder for them to find employment. And so, you're going to be able to get a great employee with a lot of human capital.

Gene Marks (28:28)

That is great. That is also great advice. And you know, the other part of that advice that you gave, as you started giving it, was just making me think that, you know, when we go into recruiting, you know, you know, women employees, that, that it's a long-term view, isn't it? You know, it is, you know, you have to understand that you, you mentioned, you know, even in this day and age, I come across many clients that people working for them for 20 years or more. I mean, it is not that unusual. People want that stability and you hire people, every person you hire saying, I want this person to be working for me for the next 20, 30 years. And if that's the case, particularly if it's a female employee, you have to know at the very outset that, you know, if this person is going to be married and going to have kids, there's going to be ebbs and flows in their availability and their output. But it's the long game that you have to play. And I think you need to go into a relationship that way. Does that make sense?

Corinne Low (29:19)

Exactly. You're making an investment and you're making an investment over the, you know, the entire lifecycle of that employee with the company. And you know, and then I think that investment's going to pay off.

Gene Marks (29:29)

Well, the book is called Having It All: What Data Tells Us About Women's Lives and Getting the Most Out of Yours. And I have been speaking to Dr. Corinne Low. She is a professor at Wharton here in Philadelphia. She is also an economist and, of course, an author of this book. This is your first book, am I correct?

Corinne Low (29:46)

It is my first book. And so like I said, I've been sharing all this information with academic journals. None of you have been getting it, and so now it's going to be available to you.

Gene Marks (29:54)

It's great. It's great. And I imagine you'll be doing interviews. I mean, we're talking from a business standpoint, but I didn't even get into some of the data in this book. That's all, you know, social stuff, you know, with women in the workforce, that is more stuff that hopefully you'll talk about on Good Morning America or whatever other show that you're going to be on.

Corinne Low (30:10)

Yeah, and I'd love listeners to know that. That the book is chock full of frameworks and advice for your own life and how to kind of think about some of these problems and how to, you know, not just lean in, but how to what I call level up, how to actually get a better deal from your work, from your relationships and kind of make this impossible set of constraints really work for you.

Gene Marks (30:33)

Well, Corinne, thank you very much. That was a great conversation. I want to wish you best of success with the book and hopefully we'll be talking again sometime soon.

Corinne Low (30:40)

Thanks so much, Gene. It was great to talk.

Gene Marks (30:42)

Do you have a topic or a guest that you would like to here on THRIVE? Please let us know. Visit payx.me/ThriveTopics and send us your ideas or matters of interest. Also, if your business is looking to simplify your HR, payroll, benefits, or insurance services, see how Paychex can help. Visit the resource hub at paychex.com/worx. That's W-O-R-X. Paychex can help manage those complexities while you focus on all the ways you want your business to thrive. I'm your host, Gene Marks, and thanks for joining us. Till next time, take care.

Announcer (31:16)

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