Best-Selling Author and Host Ken Coleman: Stop Motivating Your Team and Start Doing This Instead

Ken Coleman (00:00)

Three human needs must be met by leaders and managers. This is what they found. You meet these human needs, you're going to see tremendous engagement, increase and retention and productivity and profitability. All those numbers go up. First is meaning and purpose in their work. Second, recognition for their unique contribution. Third, a relationship with their leader. It's that simple.

Announcer (00:23)

Welcome to THRIVE, a Paychex Business Podcast. Your blueprint for navigating everything from people to policies to profits. And now your host, Gene Marks.

Gene Marks (00:35)

All right, everybody. I'm here with Ken Coleman. He is a bestselling author and the host of Front Row Seat, a very, very popular podcast and show that you can find on YouTube and podcast platforms. He can be reached at KenColeman.com, and Ken, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm glad to talk with you.

Ken Coleman (00:52)

No, I'm glad to be with you. Thank you.

Gene Marks (00:55)

Good. So, I know that you talk about, you know, workforce and career topics, so we can jump around on a bunch of different things to discuss with you. But first thing I wanted to ask you about a little bit is wiring. You have talked a lot in the past about people doing work that they're wired to do. Talk to me a little bit about that. I'm interested in your point of view on that.

Ken Coleman (01:18)

Yeah. I think there's three wires that every human has. The first wire is talent. So, everybody's born with talent. And over time, through education and experience, we sharpen that talent into a skill. So, we all understand that it's like if you got multiple kids, they're not all going to be in the same talent bucket. So talent. Think of talent as our tools to be able to then execute on the other two wires. The second wire is passion. This idea of loving something so much that you'll suffer for it. That's the root word of passion in the Latin is pati. It means to suffer. So, it's not a romantic context. It's an actual suffering context. And so, we know the great craftsmen, you know, athletes, successful businesspeople, artists, this doesn't matter. When you interview somebody that I've had the privilege to do so many times, somebody who really loves what they do, you understand that there's a deep passion beyond just I enjoy it. It's you will suffer failure, you'll suffer rejection, you'll suffer so many things in order to be able to do that thing. So, passion is the second wire. The third wire is mission. And this is where human values come into play. What do we value? What results do we want to put into the world. So every human longs to make a contribution. So that third wire is mission, a sense of mission. And I use that word very specifically. We usually think of the word mission in a military or religious context, but it simply is defining a very clear objective. I am going to the mission field to do this, or I, we are this, this brigade or this, this unit of military has got one clear objective, so that's mission. So if you put them together, talent is what you do best.

Gene Marks (03:14)

Yep.

Ken Coleman (03:14)

Passion is what you love to do most, and mission are the results you care deeply about. So, here's the sentence. How do you know you're doing the work you're wired to do if you're spending the majority of your day using what you do best to do what you love to produce a result that you care deeply about? And that is very, very achievable. But we don't teach this in the school system. And so, we make this calling or purpose in work so mysterious that only a few fortunate souls get the opportunity to do and it just couldn't be further from the truth. It's just that simple. Use what you do best to do what you love to produce a result you care deeply about. You do that, you're going to be happier and more fulfilled than the majority of people on this planet.

Gene Marks (03:59)

So that's kind of easier said than done. As I'm sure you're aware, I walk around a lot of companies. I see people working in accounting, I see people working in customer service, I see people working in IT departments. They might have a modicum of talent at what they do. I don't see many of them feeling passionate about reconciling bank accounts or generating invoices for customers. And I also don't see many people finding that there's much of a mission involved in their jobs when they are doing, you know, tasks during the day under threat of, you know, potential from their employers being replaced or not around or keeping their jobs or all of that. So that to me is the workforce that I see. What do we do? You know, how do you, how do you tell people to find that passion when their job is something like that? How do you, how do you rescue them?

Ken Coleman (04:54)

Well, it's right back to the formula I gave you, and I actually disagree with you. It's not easier said than done. It actually comes two ways. Number one, someone has to be able to then see the pattern. So, it starts with self-awareness. So, let's say you took the assessment in the book, Find the Work You're Wired to Do, that I just described. And let's say that you realize, okay, of the four types of work and underneath this assessment, the four types of work are object work. So you're working with things, idea work. So that's more of a creative nature. People work, we get that. And then process work. So let's take your example of the accountant whose soul is slowly seeping out of their body. That's what you presented me with. You go, how do you help them? It's very simple. First thing I'd ask them is, are you good at process work? Have you always been good at process work? And if the answer is, yeah, I'm really good with numbers. And I think in a very categorized way and very operational and process driven. Great. So check the box. Okay. Now do you love playing around with numbers, you love organizing numbers, or you just, you kind of put up with it? Well, we're going to get an answer there. So let's say they go, I used to. Okay, take me back to a time when you used to really enjoy working with numbers. We dig into that, right? A good business coach can do this. This person could also do this. And you begin to see, okay, I actually do like crunching numbers. Okay, well, let's look at the result you're creating. So what result are you creating in this missional bucket? Well, I'm creating TPS reports and I don't know where those TPS reports go, and I don't see a connection of the TPS report to the customer. Well, therein lies the problem. So how do I rescue that person? Well, if they're two for three, we gotta ask them, have you started to make the connection of the results that you put out to the end result of your company's purpose? In other words, it's a product or service, maybe both. So, for instance, at Ramsey Solutions, if we've got a programmer who's in the same boat, and the programmer goes, I'm really good at programming and I actually really enjoy programming, but I just, I don't see how the code that I'm doing right now helps a person get out of debt. Well, we have to as a team, and the leader in that position needs to be so checked in with that person, so they begin to hear that, and they see that, and they go, okay, I've done a poor job of helping you see where you fit into the big picture. So, it's that simple. Now that's if they're actually wired for the role, but they're not getting the result. Now let's say that's two out of three good at numbers. Enjoy working with numbers in an accounting framework. But if they don't like the result they're putting out, so maybe they're not fired up about the product or the service of the company they work for. So I would say then let's go find you a company where you're evangelistic about the product or the service. And then as an accountant, you see yourself as a very important part of this organization. And then I'm trying to give you the most well-rounded answer quickly. And if it's, if none of those are true, So, I'm good with numbers, but I don't actually like accounting. Oh, okay. Why'd you choose accounting? Because my dad said it was a safe job. And there's millions upon millions of Americans who are experiencing exactly what you said. And you are experiencing that. And that's not a myth. But what I'm telling you is, is the why they got there and how they got there and why they're experiencing that is the fix to getting them out of it. So they feel stuck, but they're not stuck. They just, they just need an opportunity to get out. And so you look for where's the hand up? Sometimes we can provide ourselves our own hand. Sometimes we need the hand from our leader. Sometimes we need the hand from folks like me, resources like me, or what you're doing on this very important show. So, you know, again it comes back to, are you spending the majority of your day using what you do best to do what you enjoy to produce a result you care about? If not, then let's go plug in the answers. What is it that I'm really good at? What is it that I really enjoy? And what results would fire me up in the morning as opposed to making me stay in the bed? So that's how I'd help that person. Something's off. It could be all three, could be two, could be one.

Gene Marks (09:03)

Right. You know, our audience are mostly business owners, but we have a lot of managers, employees at companies. So, you know your theme, the things that you're talking about really do resonate with a lot of people.

Ken Coleman (09:13)

Great.

Gene Marks (09:14)

You had mentioned filling out the TPS reports. So, say you are Peter Gibbons and you're working at Initech and you're in the IT department, and you're fed up. And let's say you did not get hypnotized. You know, and you're coming into, and you've been at a job for a period of time. People work at these jobs, and they get stuck in a rut. They get used to the paycheck, they have a mortgage to pay. They have, you know, kids, they have, you know, whatever. And they're just unhappy, you know, and you, you know, maybe they're doing process work. And I, and I know you meet these people that, you know, they're creative people and they're like, you know, I would be so much happier if I was doing something in the arts field or whatever, but yeah, I'm getting paid more money to be do this, this job, and I'm just unhappy. What advice do you have for those people? Like, how would you deal with a Peter Gibbons? Assuming that you have no skill, and I hope you have no skill in hypnotizing. What would you tell a guy like that?

Ken Coleman (10:10)

Yeah, so what we're going to do is we're going to identify the mountain that we want to be on. So we're not on the mountain we want to be on. And we could make all the excuses in the world. Doesn't matter. It's okay. You do have a job because you have to pay the bills. But we know that we're not on the right mountain. So the first thing we got to do is identify what mountain we could be on and should be on. Okay. And so that's that process that I just taught earlier. So, okay, so we begin to see, you know what, I thought I wanted to be a musician, but I couldn't pay the bills. So I took an accounting job because I could just do it. And you go, but I can't be a living wage musician. Like I can't make that for variety of reasons. Well, wait a second. You're still creative, still love music, you still have some talent to contribute. So you begin to dive in and go, okay, where could I take those creative talents and ultimately build a bridge from where I am today to where I want to be? So, what would have to be true for me to then become a music teacher at a private school or a community college or what you begin to identify okay, I can't make a living on the road. Or maybe I can, maybe I could be a studio musician, but it's going to take some time. And if I start getting X amount of sessions a week as a studio musician, then I can make money doing this thing I love playing the guitar that I could never take out on the road. So, we began to, it's a, it's the old school game of, remember the match game. When we were kids and all the little tiles were there, we turn over a giraffe over here. Now I'm looking.

Gene Marks (11:37)

Andy well, Paul Lynde was Hollywood Squares, but yeah, we got it.

Ken Coleman (11:39)

You get the point. But that was a process of, I'm going to keep turning over tiles until I find the right one. And this is the mindset you got to have. The answer is there. And this is all, by the way, assuming you're not delusional. When we get some real feedback from people who know us well enough. They aren't yes men, but they're truth tellers. You've got the talent. So, we identify where can we take this talent and go make money with it? Now, so, it's I got to understand that first. Then we say, okay, what is it going to take to get there? So these are the qualifying questions. What education do I need? What do I need to learn? What do I need to do? That's the experience question. What experience would I need in order to get paid full time to do this? Then we have to say, how much is this going to cost? That's the financial question. And then finally, based on those other three answers, how long will this take? That's the expectation question. If you do that, you'd be surprised how the human brain will give you the stick to it-iveness that you need, the tenacity to stay the course, to make the transition. Most people won't make the transition because they don't have clarity and so, the unknown is terrifying. And here's what I know after coaching over 10,000 unhappy professionals live on the air: We would rather be miserable than uncomfortable. Because I know what misery looks like, and I've managed to gut it out, but I don't know what transition looks like and it's terrifying. So we begin that clarity process, and then we ask the question, what do I need to learn? What do I need to do? How much is it going to cost? How long will it take? And that's how I would build a bridge for that person to get out of that day job of accounting and get into work that is more creative, that feeds their soul and feeds their family. It is possible. And by the way, all the stuff I'm saying, none of this is romanticized. Like, these are tactical steps that take time, but it is doable.

Gene Marks (13:38)

I don't know if you've ever seen before Gordon Ramsay became Gordon Ramsay. He had a show over in the UK called Kitchen Nightmares, and it was a... He would go into these British restaurants and try and basically rescue them. And as great Gordon Ramsay as a character, obviously a smart and successful chef, I mean, again, like 90% of the time he failed. You know, I mean, it was just he would walk into the restaurant, tell them all things they should be doing, and they'd all be like, oh, we're going to do this, we're going to do this. And then they just, you know, it, because it's just them. What do you, you must come across that a lot in your job, right? I mean, you're giving out very pertinent, like, really helpful advice. But then you see people not progressing. You know, is that a solvable problem or is there just, you know, just people that just not going to do it?

Ken Coleman (14:22)

Yeah, it is solvable. The reason he didn't work is because everybody knew what the gig was. It was a reality show, and they largely had to play a part. And this guy's going to come in and he's going to bark at him and he's going to play this role, and then he's going to leave and he's not going to lead him. And people know that. So even if those people had the best of intentions, they knew he was leaving them. Gordon Ramsay's a caricature. He's not a coach. A coach comes in and says, all right, this restaurant's a nightmare. So, I need to go around and do a listening tour and a discovery tour. I need to find out what does it take? What are the non-negotiables that must be present in every position, from the hostess at the first touch to the person cleaning the kitchen, the last move before the lights go off. What kind of person needs to be in this role? And they come at it with the right methodology to go, okay, what kind of talents do the people up front need to have? What do they need to enjoy? What results need to matter to them. So I'm going to go find me a people person who needs affirmation from another person smiling back at them. I want a person who's wired for that. And if they don't get a smile back from somebody, it ruins their night. That's who I want at the front desk. I mean, at the front thing. And by the way, you can find that kid as an 18-year-old with just a good old fashioned intuitive interview. All right, so you should come in and you go, okay, what do I need? I don't have a person at that. So, I need to go find somebody. I need to go find somebody who would be thrilled out of their mind to wash dishes because they have a lot of anxiety, and no one's giving them a lot of chance. But they need an hourly wage. And I'm going to come around this side and show this kid, if you wash dishes really good for 30 days, I'm going to bring you along, and you're going to get to a point where you can move to this role and this role. So again, that's what a coach does. A coach finds that freshman kid who he thinks could be a starter as a junior, and he pours or she pours into that kid. So you got to lead like a coach. And so we're speaking ultimately to motivation. And real quick on this, because this is a deep dive. I'm going to try to take Psychology 101 and dive, I mean, dump it fast. There's two types of motivation, and your audience are leaders and managers. So this is what you got to get, two types of motivation. One is extrinsic. Two is intrinsic. Intrinsic is the gold. You find the intrinsic motivator within your people, and you're going to look like a magician, and they're going to love you for helping them see it. Now, let's talk about extrinsic first. Extrinsic motivation is people do it because they have to. So Gordon Ramsay came in and they had to play a part, and none of them wanted to do anything that he had to say because they were only doing it because they had to either get fired or they wouldn't get to be on the show and tell their aunt and uncles and all their people, I got to be on Gordon Ramsay's show. Extrinsic motivation is great with parenting. I would tell my teenage boys, if you don't clean your room up and your bathroom, you don't get to go out with your friends. Your friends don't get to come over. So they did it, but with a really bad attitude. Now, that's manipulation. It's great parenting. Terrible leadership. Intrinsic motivation is going, what fires up Susan? What results get Susan juiced? She's fired up to come into work. She's got it. She's absolutely ready to go. We got to ask, got to find out. And then you put her in a position to deliver those things, and you turn on her pilot light and get out of Susan's way. Okay, so that's intrinsic motivation. Everybody's got it. And as a leader, you need to understand it's not your job to motivate anybody, because you can't motivate anyone. You can manipulate them with the classic Steve Carell pizza party in The Office. That's not real motivation, it's manipulation. So, we want to get to a place where we can help others see what motivates them. And when they see it and they reveal it, then you put them in a place where they get a lot of that and that person shows up and they're self-motivated because they're aware. So your job as a leader is to be an illuminator. If you illuminate it and then feed it, you're going to be, people are going to talk about you like you're a legendary leader. It's actually that simple. And by the way, if you got somebody in a position that what motivates them isn't congruent with what they're doing, it's your job to move them to another seat or get rid of them and find somebody who loves to be in that seat.

Gene Marks (18:41)

My best clients that I meet that run businesses, know what they're good at and know what they're not good at. All the things that you're saying that a leader should be doing or a business owner for this point, I have to say, I mean there are, I meet a lot of successful business owners that are technically great. You know, they're engineers, they're, they're product people. They're, you know, they're, you know, they're not necessarily great with employees, with people. And in fact, that's also a generational thing which we won't even get into in this conversation. But you know, it is, it is that thing. So let's say you're working with a business owner who is doing a good job running their business. You know, person knows their numbers, you know, they know their products or whatever. But they're not that motivator that you're saying that they should be. You know, where can I go to get help? What would they do? Right? And picture you're talking to this person and you're like, this person is not, you know, doesn't have that talent, you mentioned there's three things, doesn't have that talent of motivating people. What kind of advice would you offer?

Ken Coleman (19:39)

Well, again, you don't have to motivate, but you do have to illuminate and you can ask a question. Every human being, I don't care what the personality type is, can ask good questions. And there's two questions I teach leaders that would fit right into this training. I would sit down and go, okay, get into a weekly basis or biweekly or whatever works for your rhythm. And you got to ask your people these two questions. The first one is, how are you doing? This is not the greeting as you walk by them in the hallway, where it's just, it's hi. No, it's actually, you sit with them one on one and go, hey, how you doing? Okay. Now, they're not going to reveal a lot early, but the more you do this and they realize you're sincere and just wanting to check in on them as a human being. Now, we're not talking about prying into the stuff that you shouldn't be prying into, but it's like, how you doing? And they say, well, you know what, I'm a little stressed today. Okay, what's going on? Well, our beloved Labrador Retriever, Lucy, may be dying soon. Well, that right there is huge information because we all have lost one of our favorite dogs. And it's hard to focus on your work when your heart's breaking and you're thinking about, what can I do for Lucy? And I may not be able to afford the treatment that she needs. I mean, this is real stuff. And so, if you get into the point where they reveal something that simple, and you're able to go, hey, okay, man, I first of all, be empathetic there. Man, I tell you, we had to put our sweet, sweet, you know, dog down a year ago. I remember it was one of the darkest days, and you just meet him where they are and say, hey, listen, I totally understand that. If you need some backup on this, let me know, and I'll get Bob to help out, you know, or I'll step in. Or, hey, if you need to take an hour today, I mean, just meet them in the moment and be a human. Please, just be a human for them. And so that's the first question, how are you doing? Second question is, how can I help you win in your role? How can I help you win? Now, the first question is way more important, and it's going to take time. And once they start answering that one, they'll be more willing to answer the second one because everybody's afraid to admit to their boss they need some help. But you want to get them to the place where they trust you as a human, and then they can now lean into you as your employee and your team member and go, here's where I could use some help. And then sometimes you're going to get somebody who gets that question immediately and goes, well, I would love to actually go to the seminar. Yeah, I saw this seminar, I'd love to go. Boom. All right, let me see what I can do. How can I help you win in your role? They're going to look at you like you're an alien at first, because very few leaders do those two things. But I would start there because again, your job as a manager and a leader is to be an illuminator. Help them see things they cannot see and ask them enough questions to where they reveal something you cannot see. I mean, the aware leader, it starts with self awareness for the leader too, but also just a leader who's aware and she's built so much trust on the team that people are willing to tell him or her what's going on. That's where you start. But again, it's back to what do you know about your team? And if you know them well, you will know what motivates them, and then you can put them in a place to be motivated.

Gene Marks (22:54)

I have to say the, I have a client. They're in North Jersey, I live in Philly. And they got about 80 employees. And the guy that owns the company owns it with two of his brothers. So you can imagine that dynamic. But he's running the company. And this was like, Ken, this is like 10 years ago. He had to have some renovations done in his office. So, for a month he sat in a cubicle in his customer service departments. That's right.

Ken Coleman (23:19)

Love it.

Gene Marks (23:19)

It's been 10 years since then. He has kept that cubicle open. And periodically he goes in and he just sits in that cubicle again for like a week or two at a time, you know, to dovetail into what you're saying. He's over hearing people chitchat. People are talking about their lives. A lot of times they didn't even know that he's like sitting there, you know, whatever. And then, and then he had this... He said he learned more about the people in that department and around the company because people filter in and out and about how the business was doing. It's great advice. It really is. You're rather than like shutting the door and being cloistered inside, you know.

Ken Coleman (23:52)

He's a great leader, by the way. I mean, that's genius. Whether he meant to or not, it's genius. He deserves to be praised for that. By the way, the very act of him putting himself out there was huge to that team that he just would sit among them. Huge.

Gene Marks (24:08)

Yeah, it really was. and it really, it really changed him in his attitude towards his people. A couple more questions for you Ken. This is great. I obviously could talk to you for hours. Really, it's just great advice. Let me put you on the spot. Where would you like to work?

Ken Coleman (24:23)

Where would I like to work?

Gene Marks (24:24)

Where would you... I look at you, you don't strike me as an accountant type. I don't see you solving cybersecurity issues in any company. I get that. You're independent, you're running your own business. I get all that as well. But let's say you were, and you never will, but let's say you wanted to go back and work for a company, a brand, a well-known company. I'm going to make you think. And based, listen, you're in the careers world, you see how companies operate, what people do. I'm kind of curious if there's any companies known or not known, that you can say, you know, this is the kind of company that I would run, this is the kind of company that I would work at because, well, I...

Ken Coleman (25:03)

Actually work for Ramsey Solutions, Dave Ramsey's company.

Gene Marks (25:06)

Okay.

Ken Coleman (25:06)

So, I actually work, I'm a full-time employee. Even though I have my show, it's a part of the Ramsey network. So, you know, this is the type of company, But I'll still answer your question. I mean this is where again I'm spending 75% of my day or more. And at this stage, I've been here 12 years, you know, I'm a Ramsey personality. I co-host Dave’s show, I'm part of the succession plan. So I'm at a place now where I every day is probably 90% me using what I do best to do what I enjoy to produce results I care about. So, for me...

Gene Marks (25:39)

Interrupting you, and I apologize for doing that, but you got the talent, you got the passion and obviously the company's clear about their mission. So you know what your mission is. Carry on.

Ken Coleman (25:47)

100%. Yeah. And so that's why I'm using what I do best to do what I love to produce results I care about. So for me, if I were to leave Ramsey and go somewhere, the same thing's got to be true. It could be completely different work, but I've got to be able to be using my top skills to be doing something, and for me it's coaching, communicating, advising. Those are, those are key, key words. So there's a lot of work that could be put into those three words. But I've got to be doing that. And if I'm doing that and so if I'm coaching, communicating, advising, and then I'm driving a result of influence and I'm achieving, and so influence is people focused. So, helping leaders, teams, companies. It's got to be that because I'm all people work. And so as long as I'm doing that and I'm driving influence, which means transformational change of the company or some individuals in a company, and then finally that it's achieving, I'm seeing scores and I can see that a scoreboard matters to me. So, I need to be driven by results. Then I'm happy. So, and then the last piece, pulling all that together, is a culture where people are valued, and I mean really valued. I can walk into a company and within 10, 15 minutes give you a snapshot of what their culture is. I just can because I know what to look for, you know. And so, I'd want to be in a place where, again, people are valued, where you can tell the leaders care about the people.

Gene Mark: (27:23)

You know, it's funny when I, when I hear you talk about that is, you know, I mean, I cover small business for a bunch of different places. And obviously business people are always looking to find talent and retain talent, and they're fighting against the big corporation and the governments and all that kind of stuff. And yet, and using that example, that guy that sat in the customer service area, again, 80 employees, their turnover is very low. There's people working for this guy that could be working elsewhere. They could be working at a bigger company, probably making more money or having better, you know, and yet they stick with, you're doing the same thing like you're sticking with, you know, Dave Ramsey's company, you could, I mean, we don't know each other very well, but I clearly see you could work in corporate America and you probably could be making even more in a lot of, a lot of different places. And yet you're treated in a certain way. You're part of a culture. You're talking to the top as it is. You are, you're given the opportunity. You're being listened to. He seems like this is like what you want. And, and I, I just think it should be motivation for people listening or watching this that just because you run a small business, people want to feel like they can make a difference.

Ken Coleman (28:29)

Yes.

Gene Marks (28:29)

And I think you do feel like you have purpose.

Ken Coleman (28:32)

Yeah. First, very much, you're tapping on something that's really important. Two things I want your leader audience to understand. Number one, the grass is not always greener.

Gene Marks (28:40)

Yeah.

Ken Coleman (28:41)

Let's just be excited when the grass Is green. Right. Like, can I take my shoes off, metaphorically, and do I feel comfortable and safe and have what I think is a healthy future in front of me? If you got that, you've got something really special. Second thing is, is Gallup came out with some data several years ago. It's probably only three or four years old. It's really true about employee engagement. Did the largest study ever on employee engagement. And engagement is the key indicator on retention. Okay, so we talk about retention and loyalty. You mentioned this. All right, leaders. This is really awesome. This is Gallup, not Ken Coleman. Three human needs must be met by leaders and managers. This is what they found. Number one, people need to see meaning and purpose in their work. I touched on this at the start of the conversation, helping the accountant see greater meaning and purpose than what's on their screen. Number two, people need, that's right. And people need to be recognized for their unique contribution. This is, hey, Ken, I noticed what you've been doing over here. You did this, this, and this, and it led to this. And I want to tell you, we see it, we appreciate you. They want to be recognized for their unique contribution. That's privately and publicly. And then third, they want a relationship with their leader. Now, this is not best buddies and going having a beer after work. We're talking about they need that coach/mentor relationship. So, I'll review those really quick. You meet these human needs, you're going to see tremendous engagement, increase and retention and productivity and profitability. All those numbers go up. First is meaning and purpose in their work. Second, recognition for their unique contribution. Third, a relationship with their leader. It's that simple.

Gene Marks (30:23)

I have one final question for you, and I apologize because we're going over a little bit, but I do want to hear your response to this.

Ken Coleman (30:29)

Yeah, no problem.

Gene Marks (30:30)

So, I have a, I met a guy at a conference, and he sells windows and doors. He has a company. It's like, in Oklahoma City. And he says, this is a question about recruiting. Okay? He never worries about finding talent. He, you know, his attitude is, And he's been doing this for over 20 years, I look around, I go to restaurants. I have a good server that's bringing me food with energy and enthusiasm, and, you know, whatever. I go to the FedEx store, I go to retail. Like, whatever. I find good people. He's like, there, he feels that there is not a job in his company that can't be taught, but you cannot teach people to have, you know, the drive and enthusiasm and energy for doing the job. That's something that he looks for and so, he doesn't care about experience so, you know, so much as just the person itself. What do you think of that? What are your thoughts on that?

Ken Coleman (31:22)

I'd have him on the podcast because he's right. He's right. Here's why. Pat Lencioni, your viewers and listeners may know him, one of the best-selling business authors over the last two decades. He's become a dear friend. He and I were talking about this once on a podcast together. We don't believe, Neither one of us believe that you can teach hunger. And neither does your buddy. And your buddy's figured it out.

Gene Marks (31:46)

He's not a buddy. He's just the guy I met at a conference.

Ken Coleman (31:48)

I'm sorry, I apologize. I apologize. I'm trying to keep it all straight. The point is that guy has figured out what is true, which is you cannot teach desire. Or hunger is how Pat and I put it. So, what he's done, which is brilliant, is I'm going to go find hungry people and then teach them how to eat. It's brilliant and he's absolutely right. I couldn't add anything to it and I absolutely would do the same thing. But there's a little bit more method to it than just hunger. You can take a hungry person and put them in the wrong seat of the bus and they're going to be miserable and they will temporarily feel as though they've lost their hunger. They haven't, thankfully. But there needs to be a little bit more method to it and I've already taught on that. So, but I do think, yes, finding hungry people who are a good fit using the three wires, what they're good at, what they love to do and what they care about producing. You take hunger and then get those three things aligned with the role, watch out. 100%.

Gene Marks (32:51)

Ken Coleman is the three-time best-selling author and host of Front Row Seat. You can catch him on YouTube and all the popular podcast platforms. His website is KenColeman.com. Ken thank you for taking time out of your very busy day. This is a great conversation. I really appreciate it.

Ken Coleman (33:07)

Thank you. Well, I'm honored. I appreciate you having me.

Gene Marks (33:09)

Do you have a topic or a guest that you would like to hear on THRIVE? Please let us know. Visit payx.me/ThriveTopics and send us your ideas or matters of interest. Also, if your business is looking to simplify your HR, payroll, benefits, or insurance services, see how Paychex can help. Visit the resource hub at paychex.com/worx. That's W-O-R-X. Paychex can help manage those complexities while you focus on all the ways you want your business to thrive. I'm your host, Gene Marks, and thanks for joining us. Till next time, take care.

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